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Old November 8th, 2007, 08:32 AM   #61
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Actually Abe Lincoln was a devout Christian. You are wrong CC.

I just read his biography a few weeks ago.
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Old November 8th, 2007, 08:42 AM   #62
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I thought "Honest" Abe was. :)
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Old November 8th, 2007, 12:32 PM   #63
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1. One thing no one has really touched base on. Is many of the founding fathers were "Masons".

2. In the scheme of things Christianity is not nearly as old as Buddhism (480 BC) or Hinduism (400BC), both give or take a couple hundred years. Point being, more wars and fathom have been the direct result of religious squabbles. Most of them being Christian in nature.

3. A true Muslim who follows the original untainted Koran is not an extremist or feels that blowing up a bus full of kids will get them into heaven. Theirs definitely a place in hell for those people.

4. I say, do good, be good, be moral, believe in God or a greater being or cause and there will be a place in heaven for you.
1. http://bessel.org/foundmas.htm

2. Christianity started at year 33, but was historically Judaism, which is the SAME GOD, so it is an older religion than you are describing when you see the big picture. Would you care to back up your claims that most religious wars were because of Christians?

3. Here is the difference: any extremist odd ball Christian (of which there are not many), if that person kills because someone does not convert, they DISOBEY scripture. Muslims, even if they are not extremists, are OBEYing their holy book by killing those who refuse to convert. THAT is the difference.

4. Ok, so be a good person, now what? Believe just anything and it does not matter? If I believe in the smurf god, that is qualifiable for salvation? Why would your opinion here have any truth value?
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Old November 8th, 2007, 12:56 PM   #64
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Actually Abe Lincoln was a devout Christian. You are wrong CC.

I just read his biography a few weeks ago.

What biography did you read? Something that was written last year off some fourth hand info? I also have a biography on Abe, and it was written in the 1860's. If you care to borrow it, you will be very surprised on how history changes as the information is passed down.


Actually, I just found it online:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...a;idno=ABX9856

The UofM online library is kick ass, but sooooooooooooo slow
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Old November 9th, 2007, 02:21 AM   #65
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What biography did you read? Something that was written last year off some fourth hand info? I also have a biography on Abe, and it was written in the 1860's. If you care to borrow it, you will be very surprised on how history changes as the information is passed down.


Actually, I just found it online:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...a;idno=ABX9856

The UofM online library is kick ass, but sooooooooooooo slow
Have you figured out who John Galt is yet?:tonka:
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Old November 9th, 2007, 07:00 AM   #66
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Have you figured out who John Galt is yet?:tonka:
The guy who followed me into the sunoco gas station yesterday was eager to answer that same question on my bumper.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 08:57 AM   #67
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1. http://bessel.org/foundmas.htm

2. Christianity started at year 33, but was historically Judaism, which is the SAME GOD, so it is an older religion than you are describing when you see the big picture. Would you care to back up your claims that most religious wars were because of Christians?

3. Here is the difference: any extremist odd ball Christian (of which there are not many), if that person kills because someone does not convert, they DISOBEY scripture. Muslims, even if they are not extremists, are OBEYing their holy book by killing those who refuse to convert. THAT is the difference.

4. Ok, so be a good person, now what? Believe just anything and it does not matter? If I believe in the smurf god, that is qualifiable for salvation? Why would your opinion here have any truth value?


The Quran does not say anywhere to kill those that refuse to convert. Thats an extremists interpretation. Interpretation in any book is a problem especially with the Bible and the Quran. http://www.scribd.com/doc/9653/Does-...-and-Terrorism
It does not say to kill all infidels for no reason. A lot of those against Islam like to take a verse out of context. Most verses referring to killing are in a time of war, when a Muslim is being attacked. A Muslim is told to defend him/herself, and even then it can only be the person who attacked them and not any innocent people standing by. There are good Muslims. Not all are Bin-Ladin followers.
Not sure really why I am even trying to defend them. I am not Muslim. The interesting thing about the Muslim faith too is that they believe in God, they just call him Allah. They even recognize Christ, but only as a prophet.

I never said believe in "just anything". Now your taking my words out of context and misinterpreting them. I don't want to argue with you. I just know "for fact" that a true Muslim does not kill just to kill.

My other point was. Never said ALL the founding fathers were Masons. Yes, your website was very informative. But there were still quite a few that were. My point about Masons was that they believe in moral and metaphysical ideals, which include, in most cases, a constitutional declaration of belief in a Supreme Being (AKA, God, Allah, Jehovah, the Smurf God, i don't care what you call him).

Lastly, Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as depicted in the New Testament. Christians believe that all people should strive to follow Christ's commands and example in their everyday actions. The history of Christianity is the history of the Christian religion and Church, from Jesus and his Twelve Apostles to contemporary times. Even the earliest form of "Christianity" if you can even call it that, only dates back to around 300. Even Judaism which is based on principles and ethics embodied in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the Talmud. According to Jewish tradition, the history of Judaism begins with the Covenant between God and Abraham (ca. 2000 BCE), NOT 33. Jewish doctrines influenced other religions such as Christianity & Islam.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 09:46 AM   #68
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1. The Quran does not say anywhere to kill those that refuse to convert. Thats an extremists interpretation. It does not say to kill all infidels for no reason.

2. I never said believe in "just anything". Now your taking my words out of context and misinterpreting them. I don't want to argue with you.

3. My other point was. Never said ALL the founding fathers were Masons. Yes, your website was very informative. But there were still quite a few that were. My point about Masons was that they believe in moral and metaphysical ideals, which include, in most cases, a constitutional declaration of belief in a Supreme Being

4. Lastly, Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as depicted in the New Testament. the earliest form of "Christianity" if you can even call it that, only dates back to around 300.
1. "such is the reward for those who suppress faith" (ie, the penalty of death is due specifically for not believing in allah). Surely there is context to it, but it is undeniable that the point of the killing is because of a lack of conversion. I DO agree that some extremists take it to the point it does not need to, and I DO agree that there are peaceful Muslims, but what I do NOT agree is that their text is peaceful in and of itself, it is self condemning.

2. What you DID say is that one can be in ANYTHING and go to heaven. Yet there is no support for this belief. I am not trying ot argue with you either, but if you are going to present a false teaching, then back it up.

3. Ok, so we have learned that a SMALL portion of the founding fathers were a part of a social club called Masons. So what were the majority? Did the majority find faith in Jesus Christ?

4. No, the Christian faith started immediately after Jesus rose from the grave. As a matter of fact, it began in the upstairs of a house which was a day's walk away from Jeruselum at the Mount of Olives. Gathered were the disciples (minus Judas), the immediate family of Jesus, and the new 12th disciple. Before Jesus ascended into heaven they were given the great commission and promised the holy spirit. Shortly thereafter pentecost occured, and they preached the good news of Jesus Christ. This was in A.D. 33, as I stated previously. It was not in the year 300 as you said it was.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 10:06 AM   #69
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1. "such is the reward for those who suppress faith" (ie, the penalty of death is due specifically for not believing in allah). Surely there is context to it, but it is undeniable that the point of the killing is because of a lack of conversion. I DO agree that some extremists take it to the point it does not need to, and I DO agree that there are peaceful Muslims, but what I do NOT agree is that their text is peaceful in and of itself, it is self condemning.
wow.

So how come when I pull quotes out of the bible that talk about raping your friends daughters, and owning slaves, your response is "thats old testament, we don't follow that" Have you ever read the Quran? Or are you just picking out special quotes from some christian whacko website? Right after 9-11 I was still working in gas stations, programming underground tank monitoring systems. I had lots of talks with lots of muslims. Those people are pretty damn cool, and If I had to choose between being a christian, or muslim, I would choose the latter.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 10:07 AM   #70
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So how come when I pull quotes out of the bible that talk about raping your friends daughters, and owning slaves, your response is "thats old testament, we don't follow that"
Could you quote me on that please?
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Old November 9th, 2007, 10:12 AM   #71
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Could you quote me on that please?
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=60124

and answer my question about reading the quran
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Old November 9th, 2007, 10:20 AM   #72
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way to edit your post. YOU made the claim of what my responce is, the burden of proof is on you. What you will find is that you are wrong.

If you wish for me to address certain bible passages, start a new thread. I will respond there.

Off topic crap by CC, over.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 11:23 AM   #73
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wow.

So how come when I pull quotes out of the bible that talk about raping your friends daughters, and owning slaves, your response is "thats old testament, we don't follow that" Have you ever read the Quran? Or are you just picking out special quotes from some christian whacko website? Right after 9-11 I was still working in gas stations, programming underground tank monitoring systems. I had lots of talks with lots of muslims. Those people are pretty damn cool, and If I had to choose between being a christian, or muslim, I would choose the latter.

2 Corinthians 5:
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

1 Corinthians 5:
7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Romans 7:
6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Sounds to me, like Dave is just following the guidebook.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 11:59 AM   #74
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1. "such is the reward for those who suppress faith" (ie, the penalty of death is due specifically for not believing in allah). Surely there is context to it, but it is undeniable that the point of the killing is because of a lack of conversion. I DO agree that some extremists take it to the point it does not need to, and I DO agree that there are peaceful Muslims, but what I do NOT agree is that their text is peaceful in and of itself, it is self condemning.

2. What you DID say is that one can be in ANYTHING and go to heaven. Yet there is no support for this belief. I am not trying ot argue with you either, but if you are going to present a false teaching, then back it up.

3. Ok, so we have learned that a SMALL portion of the founding fathers were a part of a social club called Masons. So what were the majority? Did the majority find faith in Jesus Christ?

4. No, the Christian faith started immediately after Jesus rose from the grave. As a matter of fact, it began in the upstairs of a house which was a day's walk away from Jeruselum at the Mount of Olives. Gathered were the disciples (minus Judas), the immediate family of Jesus, and the new 12th disciple. Before Jesus ascended into heaven they were given the great commission and promised the holy spirit. Shortly thereafter pentecost occured, and they preached the good news of Jesus Christ. This was in A.D. 33, as I stated previously. It was not in the year 300 as you said it was.

Allah is GOD! The only time you will "interpret" the Quran to say kill so and so, is to defend themselves or in times of war. A true Muslim does not kill just to kill. If they did, we wouldn't have much of a chance in Detroit.

Yeah exactly, 33 "AD". I'm talking BC for the other religions. So yes, they are much older. My quote for 300 was a BC quote for Judaism.
You answered you own question really. A Mason has to believe in God. I suppose they wouldn't have to necessarily beileive in Christ though. Not sure on that.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:12 PM   #75
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My point is this: Even if the command was during the time of war, the justification for the killing is not because it is acceptable during war, the justification is because they do not believe (ie, infidel).

Oh ok, I thought you were saying that Christianity began in 300 AD, which is why I explained the year I quoted. Masons probably belived in Christ, but may not have been firm on it. My point, though, is that the majority of Founders were firm believers in Christ. If I spend a long time investigating, I have a feeling the percentage will be a significant majority.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:25 PM   #76
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My point is this: Even if the command was during the time of war, the justification for the killing is not because it is acceptable during war, the justification is because they do not believe (ie, infidel).

Oh ok, I thought you were saying that Christianity began in 300 AD, which is why I explained the year I quoted. Masons probably belived in Christ, but may not have been firm on it. My point, though, is that the majority of Founders were firm believers in Christ. If I spend a long time investigating, I have a feeling the percentage will be a significant majority.
here ya go buddy, you say the Quran is "MURDER MURDER", but what about the book you follow?

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers


A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents


1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery


If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed to death
(Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)


Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
















Now, lets get to God and his Wonderful handling of children! God loves children, right?










The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)





"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)





And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)





"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

Don't forget, after god promised the israel peeps a victory against babylon, they stormed into there only to have their asses handed to them. Why didn't god know this was going to happen?



If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)



Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:39 PM   #77
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If you wish for me to address certain bible passages, start a new thread. I will respond there.

Off topic crap by CC, over.
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Old November 9th, 2007, 12:55 PM   #78
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uh oh, did mr. jesus paint himself into a corner?

Thats fine, i understand
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Old November 9th, 2007, 01:08 PM   #79
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CC.........just wondering, and I'm not trying to argue, but how many of those verses were taken out of the New Testament?
........and the one that is (taken out of Romans) is only partially there. They lead up to Romans 2:1 which you did not post for some reason........and the part that is written, is just plain Yuckyyyyyy!!!!!! Well that is, unless you are Skooter.

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Old November 9th, 2007, 01:11 PM   #80
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uh oh, did mr. jesus paint himself into a corner?
Actually, I have made myself VERY clear that I will address any verses you wish, but I will not do it inside this thread, which you seem to be a fan of. I said this ahead of time, you ignored it, that was your choice.

You would rather take a cheap shot at me than to get an answer, which I am not surprized by. That seems to be your modus operandi.
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