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Old November 7th, 2007, 02:52 PM   #1
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Default The Founding Fathers are Laughing all the way to hell!

To all the people who think this nation was founded on "Christian values"

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Old November 7th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #2
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Samuel Adams
Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I ... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

Will of Samuel Adams
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles Carroll
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.


From an autographed letter in our possession written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William Cushing
First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court
Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind, after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth ...

Will of William Cushing

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John Dickinson
Signer of the Constitution
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

Will of John Dickinson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Hancock
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I John Hancock, . . . being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament…Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth . . . nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God . . .

Will of John Hancock
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Henry
Governor of Virginia, Patriot

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
Will of Patrick Henry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Jay
First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has accompanied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!

Will of John Jay
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer
Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer . . . of dispossing mind and memory, commend my soul to my blessed Redeemer . . .

Will of Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Henry Knox
Revolutionary War General, Secretary of War
First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe-to that great and tremendous Jehovah, - Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite . . . To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection . . .

Will of Henry Knox
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Langdon
Signer of the Constitution
In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life . . .

Will of John Langdon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Morton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
With an awful reverence to the great Almighty God, Creator of all mankind, I, John Morton . . . being sick and weak in body but of sound mind and memory-thanks be given to Almighty God for the same, for all His mercies and favors-and considering the certainty of death and the uncertainty of the times thereof, do, for the settling of such temporal estate as it hath pleased God to bless me with in this life . . .

Will of John Morton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Treat Paine
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.

Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.

[W]hen I consider that this instrument contemplates my departure from this life and all earthly enjoyments and my entrance on another state of existence, I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of his providential goodness and his forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state, acknowledging with grateful remembrance the happiness I have enjoyed in my passage through a long life . . .

Will of Robert Treat Paine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
Signer of the Constitution
To the eternal, immutable, and only true God be all honor and glory, now and forever, Amen!...

Will of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rufus Putnam
Revolutionary War General, First Surveyor General of the United States
[F]irst, I give my soul to a holy, sovereign God Who gave it in humble hope of a blessed immortality through the atonement and righteousness of Jesus Christ and the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. My body I commit to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian manner. I fully believe that this body shall, by the mighty power of God, be raised to life at the last day; 'for this corruptable (sic) must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.' [I Corinthians 15:53].

Will of Rufus Putnam
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!

Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution
I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer.

Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Stockton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the Being of God, the universal defection and depravity of human nature, the divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Savior, the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit, of Divine Faith, accompanied with an habitual virtuous life, and the universality of the divine Providence, but also . . . that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state; that all occasions of vice and immorality is injurious either immediately or consequentially, even in this life; that as Almighty God hath not been pleased in the Holy Scriptures to prescribe any precise mode in which He is to be publicly worshipped, all contention about it generally arises from want of knowledge or want of virtue.

Will of Richard Stockton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Trumbull Sr.
Governor of Connecticut, Patriot
Principally and first of all, I bequeath my soul to God the Creator and Giver thereof, and body to the Earth . . . nothing doubting but that I shall receive the same again at the General Resurrection thro the power of Almighty God; believing and hoping for eternal life thro the merits of my dear, exalted Redeemer Jesus Christ.

Will of Jonathan Trumbull
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish.

John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 03:58 PM   #3
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none of those are government documents. None of them show any intent on this being a "christian nation" Sure, some of the founding fathers were Christian, some weren't. I know that not all of them were devout atheists, but because some of them were Christian doesn't mean that this country is a Christian nation. If our next president happened to be atheist, would that make this an atheist nation?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 04:09 PM   #4
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what percentage, Mike, of our founding fathers were Christians?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #5
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no clue.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 04:52 PM   #6
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what percentage, Mike, of our founding fathers were Christians?
not abe lincoln, not john adams, not thomas paine, not james madison, not george washington, not ben franklin, and CERTAINLY not Thomas Jefferson


Heres some TJ quotes:

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
.


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"
.


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
.


"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
- to John Adams, 1803
.


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
.


"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
- to Carey, 1816
.


"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800
.


"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816
.


"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820
.


"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
.


"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Notes on Virginia"
.

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
.


"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."
.


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
.


"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
.


"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823
.


"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."
.


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
.


"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
.


"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
.


"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."
- letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816
.


"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
.


.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814
.

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
.


"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
-letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT
"The Complete Jefferson" by Saul K. Padover, pp 518-519
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Old November 7th, 2007, 04:54 PM   #7
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Jefferson's alright, but give me Thomas Paine anyday...


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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #8
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Ok, quotes from TJ, got it. Do you suppose the majority were believers or non-believers?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Ok, quotes from TJ, got it. Do you suppose the majority were believers or non-believers?
honestly Dave, that doesn't matter, that was their personal business, separation of Church and state was the game, baby.

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Do you think that a nation should grab hold of the most prevalent religion and force it's moral code on that society?

take a look at history and see how well that worked.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:10 PM   #10
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ok, tell me then, when did the u.s. goof up when forcing its prior christian beliefs on the nation?

also, tell me how much better our nation has become since it has moved away from its christian roots
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:15 PM   #11
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ok, tell me then, when did the u.s. goof up when forcing its prior christian beliefs on the nation?

also, tell me how much better our nation has become since it has moved away from its christian roots
i think you're mixing up christian beliefs with a general human moral code.

p.s. why was the term "god" introduced on currency, etc. in the 1950's rather than the late 18th century?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:17 PM   #12
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I am ignoring you until you address my questions
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:27 PM   #13
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i don't understand your question. what prior christian beliefs were imposed?

Some of the people who founded our country were christian...a lot of people in the U.S. are still Christian... I don't believe our nation has christian roots to have moved away from, therefore...our nation has improved in some ways and in some ways we've taken some steps back.

for example, we have much better technology, health care, etc. than we did back in the late 1700s, but on the other hand, our personal freedoms have been cut short a bit lately. Is this what you're wondering about?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:28 PM   #14
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Ok, quotes from TJ, got it. Do you suppose the majority were believers or non-believers?
I have no idea. I'm guessing some of them were. I've never researched the topic far enough to know much past the fact that the "main" founding fathers were not.

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ok, tell me then, when did the u.s. goof up when forcing its prior christian beliefs on the nation?

also, tell me how much better our nation has become since it has moved away from its christian roots
I do not remember ever reading about any religion being forced upon anbody. Maybe your going back to the colonys, and the like, but that wasn't the united states as we know it today.

Most importantly the founding fathers (even though not religious) made sure to protect the right of people who are, and that is great. But religion should play no part in politics, nor government. If you do your research, you will find EVERY country/city/empire ruled by religion ultimately failed, and failed hard.

We are at war right now, and I think we will be forever due to religious battles. Most people are familiar with the muslim extremists, and making their bible (Qur'an) into something really awful, and deadly. But it goes WAY deeper then that. When you get into tribes, citys, and sometimes countries, especially in africa and the middle easy, you find MILLIONS of people dying over holy wars.

A peaceful religion is of course not bad in any way, as long as they're not controlling any government, but religious nuts can do alot of damage.

If religion makes you happy, that is awesome, and you should practice it. Its not my right to tell you no, but its not your right to intrude into my life via government or any other methods.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:30 PM   #15
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you said
Quote:
Do you think that a nation should grab hold of the most prevalent religion and force it's moral code on that society? take a look at history and see how well that worked.
I responded by asking you when the United States has imposed some moral code that was disasterous. So I am still waiting to hear your responce.

It is evident that our nation is moving farther and farther away from Christianity, yet at the same time, our country is getting worse, not better. So is the yanking of our roots helping or hurting?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:32 PM   #16
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I have no idea. I'm guessing some of them were. I've never researched the topic far enough to know much past the fact that the "main" founding fathers were not.

A peaceful religion is of course not bad in any ways, but religious nuts can do alot of damage.
I will read up on it more, but I am under the impression that most were Christians.

I agree, they sure can. But you can't ignore the fact that everyone, including political leaders, have moral codes they live their lives by, and that govern their political decisions. Would you rather have a Muslim or Christian in office?
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:34 PM   #17
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It is evident that our nation is moving farther and farther away from Christianity, yet at the same time, our country is getting worse, not better. So is the yanking of our roots helping or hurting?
There are way too many variables to even begin to compare the two. For the first time in a long time, the economys of other countries are growing by leaps and bounds, we now have armys that can wipe out complete countries by the push of the button, we are going to other planets and landing on them, we are going to the bottom of the ocean... The world isn't the same as back in the day. Apples vs oranges.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:38 PM   #18
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I will read up on it more, but I am under the impression that most were Christians.

I agree, they sure can. But you can't ignore the fact that everyone, including political leaders, have moral codes they live their lives by, and that govern their political decisions. Would you rather have a Muslim or Christian in office?
It doesn't matter to me. I would more likely vote for a christian because christians tend to have the same political views as me, but there are some christians that I disagree with, and there are some muslims that I would vote for in a heartbeat.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:39 PM   #19
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I am talking about our nation in terms of morality, sorry for not being clear. Bad is being called good, and good is being called bad. School shootings, broken marriages, you name it. Our society is rampant with tough stuff, and Christianity is being removed more and more as time goes on. I think there is a link between these two issues.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 05:40 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
It doesn't matter to me. I would more likely vote for a christian because christians tend to have the same political views as me, but there are some christians that I disagree with, and there are some muslims that I would vote for in a heartbeat.
there are a lot of christians I disagree with too. pat robertson endorced juliani today, and I would too if he had any respect for the unborn.
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