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View Poll Results: Does prayer work???
Prayer does not work, there is no god to listen. 15 17.05%
Prayer works, God hears us and moves. 48 54.55%
I am not sure, it seems to matter somehow though. 21 23.86%
Hug Cubetor. 4 4.55%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 1st, 2007, 03:50 PM   #1
Dave Kerwin
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Default Does prayer work?

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Old November 1st, 2007, 03:53 PM   #2
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People seem to ask for prayer semi-regularly here, so I assume many believe in the power of prayer, or in positive thinking at least. What is your take on it?
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Old November 1st, 2007, 04:01 PM   #3
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What are you doing Dave?
Why would you ask this question to this group.................Lets talk in PM
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Old November 1st, 2007, 04:05 PM   #4
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I admit I may be stupid sometimes. But I pray all the time. For my family and friends. For people with cancer and sick people. But I hardly ever pray for myself. And never pray for money. And I have had a few times when I think prayer worked.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 07:14 PM   #5
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no hugs for cube
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Old November 1st, 2007, 07:52 PM   #6
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prayer works, just not all the time. we dont always understand our situation and whats best for us. i believe if you put trust in God, he'll get things done for you.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 07:57 PM   #7
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depends on if you believe it will or not.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:27 PM   #8
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Prayer has worked for me MANY times, and I've also found that, when I don't get exactly what I've prayed for, something better comes around that I would not have been able to take advantage of, had the thing I originally prayed for been delivered.

Ex. Put in an order with JCR for new bumper/sliders for the Wrangler, they were busy for a little while (had a week wait or so), and I couldn't find any gas cans for the rear bumper at TSC.

Within the week, the wrangler stopped working (same intermittent problem that it had been having months earlier), and I picked up the new freakin' awesome Cherokee from JCR (for less than I would have spent on all of the bumpers and such).

God is awesome!
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:31 PM   #9
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i pray for the wrath of god to punish granholm every night. i also pray for Hillary Clinton to catch face herpes.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:51 PM   #10
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It is impossible to know if prayer works. Its kind of like nostradamus' predictions, and making them out to be right.

If someone is on their death bed, and you pray to your god, and the person lives, then you attribute that to god.

If someone is on their death bed, and you pray to your god, and the person passes, then you attribute that to god taking their life so they do not have to deal with pain.

You can turn praying either way.

If prayers do work, why do "acts of god" destroy their places of worship?
http://www.wndu.com/news/headlines/10953556.html

I know, its because God wanted to make the community come together and interact.

Even though prayer cannot change real life outcomes, it can provide a place for someone to turn to, talk to, and feel comfort. So more power to them
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:56 PM   #11
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I have witnessed the blind be healed by prayer.

Yes. prayer works.
Yes. God is real.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
It is impossible to know if prayer works. Its kind of like nostradamus' predictions, and making them out to be right.

If someone is on their death bed, and you pray to your god, and the person lives, then you attribute that to god.

If someone is on their death bed, and you pray to your god, and the person passes, then you attribute that to god taking their life so they do not have to deal with pain.

You can turn praying either way.

If prayers do work, why do "acts of god" destroy their places of worship?
http://www.wndu.com/news/headlines/10953556.html

I know, its because God wanted to make the community come together and interact.

Even though prayer cannot change real life outcomes, it can provide a place for someone to turn to, talk to, and feel comfort. So more power to them
Sorry I would have to disagree. You can pray for the right things and the wrong things. You can pray for the lord to take care of the person that is on the death bed. I have had times were i feel I have talked to the lord. But every one can think what they want I guess. Theres some sripture thats says something like this "Deny me in front of your friends, and I shall deny you in front of my father".
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:59 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by A.J.Hall View Post
Sorry I would have to disagree. You can pray for the right things and the wrong things. You can pray for the lord to take care of the person that is on the death bed. I have had times were i feel I have talked to the lord. But every one can think what they want I guess. Theres some sripture thats says something like this "Deny me in front of your friends, and I shall deny you in front of my father".
Sure you can pray for the person on their death bed, but there is no way to know if prayer worked. Something that can be proved via the scientific method can provide facts upon why that person died, but you can use religion to mask it for your own use.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by FlatFender View Post
I have witnessed the blind be healed by prayer.

Yes. prayer works.
Yes. God is real.
no you haven't
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Sure you can pray for the person on their death bed, but there is no way to know if prayer worked. Something that can be proved via the scientific method can provide facts upon why that person died, but you can use religion to mask it for your own use.
I don't think God believes in your scientific method.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:03 PM   #16
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brett favre is an answer to my prayers.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
I don't think God believes in your scientific method.
I don't think scientists believe in god.
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:07 PM   #18
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here you go, Harvard medical study does 10 year study on prayer. People who are prayed for, and they realize it are worse off.



Prayer & Healing

The Verdict is in and the Results are Null

by Michael Shermer
American Heart Journal
April 2006

In a long-awaited comprehensive scientific study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of 1,802 patients undergoing coronary bypass surgery in six different hospitals, prayers offered by strangers had no effect. In fact, contrary to common belief, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications such as abnormal heart rhythms, possibly the result of anxiety caused by learning that they were being prayed for and thus their condition was more serious than anticipated.

The study, which cost $2.4 million (most of which came from the John Templeton Foundation), was begun almost a decade ago and was directed by Harvard University Medical School cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson and published in The American Heart Journal, was by far the most rigorous and comprehensive study on the effects of intercessory prayer on the health and recovery of patients ever conducted. In addition to the numerous methodological flaws in the previous research corrected for in the Benson study, Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of the forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, explained:

The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion.

The 1,802 patients were divided into three groups, two of which were prayed for by members of three congregations: St. Paul’s Monastery in St. Paul, Minnesota; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachusetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City. The prayers were allowed to pray in their own manner, but they were instructed to include the following phrase in their prayers: “for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.” Prayers began the night before the surgery and continued daily for two weeks after. Half the prayer-recipient patients were told that they were being prayed for while the other half were told that they might or might not receive prayers. The researchers monitored the patients for 30 days after the operations.

Results showed no statistically significant differences between the prayed-for and non-prayed-for groups. Although the following findings were not statistically significant, 59% of patients who knew that they were being prayed for suffered complications, compared with 51% of those who were uncertain whether they were being prayed for or not; and 18% in the uninformed prayer group suffered major complications such as heart attack or stroke, compared with 13% in the group that received no prayers.

This study is particularly significant because Herbert Benson has long been sympathetic to the possibility that intercessory prayer can positively influence the health of patients. His team’s rigorous methodologies overcame the numerous flaws that called into question previously published studies. The most commonly cited study in support of the connection between prayer and healing is:

Randolph C. Byrd, “Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population,” Southern Medical Journal 81 (1998): 826–829.

The two best studies on the methodological problems with prayer and healing include the following:

Richard Sloan, E. Bagiella, and T. Powell. 1999. “Religion, Spirituality, and Medicine,” The Lancet. Feb. 20, Vol. 353: 664–667; and,

John T. Chibnall, Joseph M. Jeral, Michael Cerullo. 2001. “Experiments on Distant Intercessory Prayer.” Archives of Internal Medicine, Nov. 26, Vol. 161: 2529–2536. www.archinternmed.com

The most significant flaws in all such studies include the following:

Fraud
In 2001, the Journal of Reproductive Medicine published a study by three Columbia University researchers claiming that prayer for women undergoing in-vitro fertilization resulted in a pregnancy rate of 50%, double that of women who did not receive prayer. Media coverage was extensive. ABC News medical correspondent Dr. Timothy Johnson, for example, reported, “A new study on the power of prayer over pregnancy reports surprising results; but many physicians remain skeptical.” One of those skeptics was a University of California Clinical Professor of Gynecology and Obstetrics named Bruce Flamm, who not only found numerous methodological errors in the experiment, but also discovered that one of the study’s authors, Daniel Wirth (AKA “John Wayne Truelove”), is not an M.D., but an M.S. in parapsychology who has since been indicted on felony charges for mail fraud and theft, for which he pled guilty. The other two authors have refused comment, and after three years of inquires from Flamm the journal removed the study from its website and Columbia University launched an investigation.

Lack of Controls
Many of these studies failed to control for such intervening variables as age, sex, education, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, marital standing, degree of religiosity, and the fact that most religions have sanctions against such insalubrious behaviors as sexual promiscuity, alcohol and drug abuse, and smoking. When such variables are controlled for, the formerly significant results disappear. One study on recovery from hip surgery in elderly women failed to control for age; another study on church attendance and illness recovery did not consider that people in poorer health are less likely to attend church; a related study failed to control for levels of exercise.

Outcome Differences
In one of the most highly publicized studies of cardiac patients prayed for by born-again Christians, 29 outcome variables were measured but on only six did the prayed-for group show improvement. In related studies, different outcome measures were significant. To be meaningful, the same measures need to be significant across studies, because if enough outcomes are measured some will show significant correlations by chance.

File-Drawer Problem
In several studies on the relationship between religiosity and mortality (religious people allegedly live longer), a number of religious variables were used, but only those with significant correlations were reported. Meanwhile, other studies using the same religiosity variables found different correlations and, of course, only reported those. The rest were filed away in the drawer of non-significant findings. When all variables are factored in together, religiosity and mortality show no relationship.

Operational Definitions
When experimenting on the effects of prayer, what, precisely, is being studied? For example, what type of prayer is being employed? (Are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, and Shaman prayers equal?) Who or what is being prayed to? (Are God, Jesus, and a universal life force equivalent?) What is the length and frequency of the prayer? (Are two 10-minute prayers equal to one 20-minute prayer?) How many people are praying and does their status in the religion matter? (Is one priestly prayer identical to ten parishioner prayers?) Most prayer studies either lack such operational definitions, or there is no consistency across studies in such definitions.

Theological Implications
The ultimate fallacy of all such studies is theological. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, He should not need to be reminded or inveigled that someone needs healing. Scientific prayer makes God a celestial lab rat, leading to bad science and worse religion
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:09 PM   #19
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God knew they were doing the study, and he jinxed it
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Old November 1st, 2007, 10:12 PM   #20
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Sure you can pray for the person on their death bed, but there is no way to know if prayer worked. Something that can be proved via the scientific method can provide facts upon why that person died, but you can use religion to mask it for your own use.

Not gonna lie. I bet your attitude on this changes when your in your death bed.
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