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Old October 29th, 2007, 09:10 PM   #1
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Default Seperation of Church and State

What does it mean? Is it the law in our country? Can anyone quote me the reference, or show me where it is found?
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Old October 29th, 2007, 09:20 PM   #2
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From the first amendment of the constitution:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 09:34 PM   #3
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Technically, there is no "separation of church and state" in the laws of the land. It's more of an "accepted interpretation".

The Constitution basically says that the government can't establish or endorse a specific religion or (algore speak) "faith tradition". Other than that, 10 Commandments in public schools. nativity scenes at government buildings, and other displays are perfectly legal.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
From the first amendment of the constitution:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It does not say seperation but rather "establishment". What does that have to do with displaying mangers in public parks ect...?
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Old October 29th, 2007, 10:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
Technically, there is no "separation of church and state" in the laws of the land. It's more of an "accepted interpretation". ...
More like an ACLU agenda.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 10:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
Means that they cannot make a law prohibiting religion nor can they endorse a specific religion. This prevented situations like the Church of England, in which the King was essentially the Pope at the same time. He ruled the "political" side of things as the Monarch, and also the religion side of things as the head of the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st Amendment
...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
The government cannot pass laws that prevent you from practicing any religion that you so choose. Be it Catholicism, Judaism, Daoism, Scientology, or Church of Bob... they cannot inhibit your freedom to worship.


Now... leave it to some ultra-lib " someone pissed in my cornflakes" lawyer to interpret that to mean "under God" doesn't belong in the Pledge.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 10:16 PM   #7
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Did Berkley vote on the CHRISTmas decorations yet? Have you guys heard of that story and the ACLU's involvement in it?
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Old October 29th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by lbfin88 View Post
It does not say seperation but rather "establishment". What does that have to do with displaying mangers in public parks ect...?
Right, no where is the word seperation used. But I think it could be argued that having religious symbols displayed on government (public) property is a De facto establishment of a "state religion" which is what the 1st amendment was meant to prevent.

Although I am Christian I do not want to see a single penny of my tax dollars spent on any religious symbols and would rather not see any displayed on public property.

It starts with a manger at Christmas... and maybe a cross at Easter. Oh, then we have to let the jews but up something for Hanukkah, and Passover, and the rest of thier holidays... of course the Muslims won't want to be left out, and the Hindus, and the Buddists, and Wiccans, and whatever other religions people want to celebrate. Pretty soon you have to have multiple display areas in case some holidays overlap and someone to manage the whole thing.

If you want to put up mangers, or any other holiday decorations for that matter, why not put it in front of your church, home, or business, why does it need to be on public property?
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Old October 30th, 2007, 09:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
From the first amendment of the constitution:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



yeah "congress shall make NO law" NO law ...not for, or aginst ANY religious establishment...our fathers were very carefull in how they worded this... so kings and goverments could not froce people into their way of thinking...ether for OR AGINST any religion.....YEAH USA U. S. A. <--in the homer simpson voice...
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Old October 30th, 2007, 09:54 AM   #10
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Does anyone know the man who drafted this writing?
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Old October 30th, 2007, 10:15 AM   #11
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I am guessing Jefferson since he drafted the Virginia Bill of Rights, which were used as the basis for the Bill of Rights that were added to the US Constitution so that it would be ratified.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 10:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
Now... leave it to some ultra-lib " someone pissed in my cornflakes" lawyer to interpret that to mean "under God" doesn't belong in the Pledge.
The Pledge of Allegiance didn't originally have that phrase in there. It was added during the Cold War.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 10:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
Does anyone know the man who drafted this writing?
your kidding me right.

you should have spent more time in history class, and less time in church. :tonka:
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Old October 30th, 2007, 12:44 PM   #14
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The author and the author's intentions and beliefs need to be understood.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 01:33 PM   #15
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No Christmas trees, Mennorahs, or suicide bombers allowed on government property.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 01:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
Means that they cannot make a law prohibiting religion nor can they endorse a specific religion. This prevented situations like the Church of England, in which the King was essentially the Pope at the same time. He ruled the "political" side of things as the Monarch, and also the religion side of things as the head of the Church.


The government cannot pass laws that prevent you from practicing any religion that you so choose. Be it Catholicism, Judaism, Daoism, Scientology, or Church of Bob... they cannot inhibit your freedom to worship.


Now... leave it to some ultra-lib " someone pissed in my cornflakes" lawyer to interpret that to mean "under God" doesn't belong in the Pledge.

In short, The separation of church and state was created to protect religion from government persecution. However, it is often mis-interpreted that it is there to protect the government from religion. Or....it really means we should be inclusive (open opportunity for all religions) as opposed to the current thinking of exclusion (we don't want any religion).
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Old October 30th, 2007, 01:43 PM   #17
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Jefferson was also concerned about one particular denomination within Christiendom not superceding another.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 01:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Right, no where is the word seperation used. But I think it could be argued that having religious symbols displayed on government (public) property is a De facto establishment of a "state religion" which is what the 1st amendment was meant to prevent.

Although I am Christian I do not want to see a single penny of my tax dollars spent on any religious symbols and would rather not see any displayed on public property.

It starts with a manger at Christmas... and maybe a cross at Easter. Oh, then we have to let the jews but up something for Hanukkah, and Passover, and the rest of thier holidays... of course the Muslims won't want to be left out, and the Hindus, and the Buddists, and Wiccans, and whatever other religions people want to celebrate. Pretty soon you have to have multiple display areas in case some holidays overlap and someone to manage the whole thing.

If you want to put up mangers, or any other holiday decorations for that matter, why not put it in front of your church, home, or business, why does it need to be on public property?
What if the whole town is for it or at least could care less, do you think it right that one person is able to object and force his secular beliefs on the others in the town through the ACLU and one liberal judge? What of the people's right to freely express their beliefs?
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Old October 30th, 2007, 01:56 PM   #19
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I am curious, this country was for the most part founded by Christians. The principles they set were primarily with the thinking that no sect within Christianity became dominant over another like what happened with the whole church of england vs roman catholic church for example. While I am not a practicing Christian myself, I have no problem with the general shift in this country towards a more dominant Christian position as opposed to trying to give freedom to other religions or not displaying religion at all.

What I'm getting at I guess is if it came down to defending this country against people of a different belief structure, how easy is it to rally public support behind it if we have no central belief structure holding us together? I would bet that just about every person on here that claims to be non-religious actually believes along the same principles as Christianity than anything else. Tolerance being one of them, but this country is predominately Christian and honestly should remain as such. Otherwise I fear the dilution of our strength if we cast aside that foundation.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 02:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos View Post
I am curious, this country was for the most part founded by Christians. The principles they set were primarily with the thinking that no sect within Christianity became dominant over another like what happened with the whole church of england vs roman catholic church for example. While I am not a practicing Christian myself, I have no problem with the general shift in this country towards a more dominant Christian position as opposed to trying to give freedom to other religions or not displaying religion at all.

What I'm getting at I guess is if it came down to defending this country against people of a different belief structure, how easy is it to rally public support behind it if we have no central belief structure holding us together? I would bet that just about every person on here that claims to be non-religious actually believes along the same principles as Christianity than anything else. Tolerance being one of them, but this country is predominately Christian and honestly should remain as such. Otherwise I fear the dilution of our strength if we cast aside that foundation.

I could not agree with you any more. The eradication of christianity from our nation weakens us. I am impressed by your post Lothos.
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