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Old October 9th, 2007, 08:52 AM   #41
Dave Kerwin
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Dave, I think I have a handle on the faith based reward system - that has always been and may well always be the limiting factor for me; Faith.
I gotcha, it seemed with the carrot comment that you did not know the faith factor. I am sure you also know that the Bible says that faith without works is dead. It communicates that faith is what grants our life, and good deeds is the outworking of that faith.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 09:02 AM   #42
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Bummer for me, I can't have faith. I'm too cynical. Even if I try, I will still have too much doubt for faith. So what am I to do, Kerwin? Just tell everybody I believe, and that will make it true?
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Old October 9th, 2007, 11:21 AM   #43
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Bummer for me, I can't have faith. I'm too cynical. Even if I try, I will still have too much doubt for faith. So what am I to do, Kerwin? Just tell everybody I believe, and that will make it true?

Mike, then consider the following:


Mark 4: 30-32
Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest seed you plant in the ground. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds of the air can perch in its shade."

Matthew 17:20b
I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."


If you have doubt, that is no surprize. But if you have faith, even the size of a mustart seed, God can grow the small faith that you do have. His invitation to you is to trust him, then to see how faithful and good he is. Taste and see is the calling, see that he is good. Give God the faith that you DO have, even with your doubt. You can do the same as the Father who's son was demon possessed, and he asked Jesus to heal his boy. This Father had doubt when he asked, and Jesus told him that it would happen if he believed, and the story continued to say this: "Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

So for you or anyone else having difficulty to have faith, give the mustard seed you have, and ask God to overcome your unbelief. Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 12:44 PM   #44
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i don't have faith in the Christian god though, not even a seed, nor in any other man-made god. The only faith I have is in the possibility of some god that I nor anybody else knows about.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 02:27 PM   #45
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i don't have faith in the Christian god though, not even a seed, nor in any other man-made god. The only faith I have is in the possibility of some god that I nor anybody else knows about.
Which is your choice.

If your your local law enforcement says not to do a particular thing, and you don't want to, then expect the natural consequences to your disobedience.

What you are telling me is that you know the requirements, but do not wish to comply. This is free will, and your excersize of it is your choice.

I find it interesting, though, that you are willing to be that some type of higher power exists. How is it that you are willing to profess faith in an unknown entity, but not in one who has shown up and proven who he is?
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Old October 9th, 2007, 02:42 PM   #46
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Which is your choice.

If your your local law enforcement says not to do a particular thing, and you don't want to, then expect the natural consequences to your disobedience.

What you are telling me is that you know the requirements, but do not wish to comply. This is free will, and your excersize of it is your choice.

I find it interesting, though, that you are willing to be that some type of higher power exists. How is it that you are willing to profess faith in an unknown entity, but not in one who has shown up and proven who he is?
I'm not betting that some higher power exists, I think there is the possibility. Maybe he introduced himself to you, but I haven't met him. All I have heard is some stories out of a book and a bunch of people trying to convince me of his existence. Never met the guy.

I don't think my "eternal salvation" should be based on the work of a bunch of church people trying to get me to believe in "their god" or the writings in a book written by similar people.

If there is a god and he/she wants me to know about him/her, that god will properly introduce themselves to me, or they don't exist, or they don't want me to know about them. seems pretty simple to me.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 02:58 PM   #47
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I'm not betting that some higher power exists, I think there is the possibility. Maybe he introduced himself to you, but I haven't met him. All I have heard is some stories out of a book and a bunch of people trying to convince me of his existence. Never met the guy.

I don't think my "eternal salvation" should be based on the work of a bunch of church people trying to get me to believe in "their god" or the writings in a book written by similar people.

If there is a god and he/she wants me to know about him/her, that god will properly introduce themselves to me, or they don't exist, or they don't want me to know about them. seems pretty simple to me.
Fair enough. But don't expect a literal knock on your door, expect a still small voice. God is a gentelman, and he will never force himself into your lfie. He stands at the door and knocks (figuratively), and for those who answer the door, he comes into their life.

God also works though his people, that is his chosen way to speak the knowledge of his Kingdom. At this point you are unable to say that the message never came to you, because it has. Yet you choose to harden your heart.

I encourage you to re-visit the historical Jesus, and get in depth as to why you reject him.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 04:16 PM   #48
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I wouldn't call it "hardening my heart" so much as, cutting through the bullshit. I've had Jehovah's witnesses come and tell me all about them, too. So is that Jehovah's way of getting in contact with me?
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Old October 9th, 2007, 05:17 PM   #49
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I wouldn't call it "hardening my heart" so much as, cutting through the bullshit. I've had Jehovah's witnesses come and tell me all about them, too. So is that Jehovah's way of getting in contact with me?
Good point. The difference is that the JW faith can be quickly discredited because it has a faulty foundation.

Tell me this though, why do you believe there is probably a higher power than you?
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Old October 9th, 2007, 05:47 PM   #50
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Good point. The difference is that the JW faith can be quickly discredited because it has a faulty foundation.

Tell me this though, why do you believe there is probably a higher power than you?
possible, not probable. because, anything is possible.
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Old October 9th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #51
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possible, not probable. because, anything is possible.
I already know you think it is possible, but I am curious the reason why. Others say there is no God, but you think there could be. Why is that? Why not be atheist?

(as a side note, I personally think being agnostic is far more sensical than being atheistic, so I already think you are right, I am just curious)
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Old October 9th, 2007, 10:30 PM   #52
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I already know you think it is possible, but I am curious the reason why. Others say there is no God, but you think there could be. Why is that? Why not be atheist?

(as a side note, I personally think being agnostic is far more sensical than being atheistic, so I already think you are right, I am just curious)

Just a little bit in me that wants to believe that there is some kind of afterlife...There are are lot of people in my life that I love and I want to be able to always be with them.
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Old October 10th, 2007, 08:22 AM   #53
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So something in you draws you to desire something more to life. Me too.
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Old October 10th, 2007, 08:30 AM   #54
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Bill,

I was reading the Bible this morning and I thought of you and this thread. In the book of Isaiah, there was a prophesy given by Isaiah to the King. It was a twofold prophesy about a sign the King would get, but also a foretelling of the Messiah (Jesus) who would come on the scene over 700 years later. Anyway, the scripture mentions a concept about a child who is able to decide against wrong and choose right things. Here it is if you would like to read: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...7;&version=31;

I mention that because it shows that there is a point in a child's life where they KNOW what is wrong, and they are capable of making decions on morality and even decisions on faith. What that exact age is, I do not know, but I would say somewhere between 2-5? If there is a time when a child KNOWS right from wrong, we can also say that there is an age where they do NOT know that. But again, I trust God's judgement.

I also found some verses in Matthew that I thought showed God's heart towards children, see it here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6;&version=31; n Take a look


So after reading what you have, and having thought about it for a few days... what do YOU think?
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Old October 10th, 2007, 09:31 AM   #55
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Just a little bit in me that wants to believe that there is some kind of afterlife...There are are lot of people in my life that I love and I want to be able to always be with them.

I'm not trying to jump in and I <b>DO NOT </b> have all the anwsers but This is what started be down the path of faith...that and all though history, in every culter and in every area of the world their is a longing for "god"...it seems humans are plaged or bless by the deep inside longing for somthing bigger then us... I long for it , and I'm sure everyone does...I belive that Jesus Christ is who I long for...

(sorry I did not mean to jump in, and this is just my thoughts so I'm not try to say its what you should think)
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Old October 10th, 2007, 12:39 PM   #56
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I would have to say that I am on the path with Mike. I do believe .... that everyone NEEDS something to believe in. Be it faith in god, or the hope that human nature will do good in the world. Without faith and hope, there is no future for some. I believe in destiny. I chose which way I will go, which road I will take and where I want my future to be. Some say that it is god's will, as he has given us "Free Will". I had a friend once that told me no matter how evil you are, as long as you except god as your savior, you will go to heaven. I find it hard to believe that I could lead a life of evil and use the "acceptance of savior" trump card to secure my spot in eternity.

Just this morning, I was looking at a photo taken by the Hubble telescope. Infinity of space, billions and billions of stars and planets (that we can see) and yet an unknown number of universes yet to be discovered. Is there life on another planet, in another galaxy? I tend to think we would be idiots if we thought it could not be possible.
My education is more engineering/science, which tends to have a logical theory of evolution. Like with Mike's "knocking at the door" comment, if I can see it, touch it , and can prove it exists... I am more likely to BELIEVE in it.
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Old October 10th, 2007, 01:47 PM   #57
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But if everyone believed in a lie, that would be silly, wouldn't it? I surely do not want to follow something made up in my mind, or someone else's mind. I want reality, and I want truth.

When I look at the vast universe, I think it cries out that Glory of God.
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