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Old March 7th, 2006, 08:41 AM   #21
Kane
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Answer is very simple:

60% of the people that work there realize that without their membership, there would be no union, therefore no union benefits.

The other 40% are just greedy SOB's who let others tow the line.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 09:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Kane
Answer is very simple:

60% of the people that work there realize that without their membership, there would be no union, therefore no union benefits.

The other 40% are just greedy SOB's who let others tow the line.
The union get NO additional benefits. They negotiated nothing. The belief seems to be that people joined b/c they thought they would get more pay, or less work. In a right to work state, the company cannot do that.

The only benefit they have is the ability to become committe man, etc...

It is interesting why people offer up 2 hours of pay per month for "nothing" in return.

I am going to talk to some UAW guys next.

btw, I am not pro union, I am not anti-union. I could care less either way as long as people are doing the best work they can and are looking to improve the process to become more competitive.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 09:50 AM   #23
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Eh, you don't have to be a union member to get union benefits in a right to work state. However, your fellow man will usually try to push you into it. Without a union at that plan the top wage would be $14-16/hour. The good thing about unions is that they organize people and *hopefully* make it fair for everyone. Like say you were there for ten years and make $20/hour. Some little fsckstick comes in and gives good head and makes $20/hour his first day. With a union that won't happen. It also sets minimum wage guidelines.

At the same time, for every good thing about a union there is a bad thing. Just like guns don't kill people, people kill people; unions aren't inherently bad, people make unions bad.

Unions aren't needed at a place where the profession is always in demand. Many universities never used to have unions... but now they do... because there is a pseudo-surplus of doctorates wishing to make a career in academia. Now that these people are no longer "in demand" universities have the upper hand. They can pay a person with a doctorate $45,000 and give them little to no perks because they can always find some schmuck willing to work for that... and be treated poorly while they're at it. You can always find someone willing to stick their hands into dangerous machinery when it pays $12/hour... it sure beats working in the service industry for $7.50.

All of you that think all unions were bad... now contemplate if you were in a field with a surplus of people just like you... you'd probably appreciate a union.


Will I ever belong to a union? Probably not.


I can't wait to see Deke respond to this one. Maybe while he's at it he can tell us why his Mom/boss/whatever got shitcanned and started the current business 5 years ago.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 09:55 AM   #24
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Union this union that... blah..

I have been in 4 unions within my construction career...they really did nothing for me...

People act like unions are there to save your jobs etc... well i hate to tell you but your work performance is what should save your job... not a bunch of people that will strike if they dont get their way. A job is not a right to have, more of a priveledge. People hire you because it will help them make money.... if your not cutting it then they should be able to fire you... for whatever reason. There are many people waiting to fill the shoes of these workers, and most would do it for a fraction of what some people make.

These people bitching about their companies not worrying about food in the mouths, or whatever, it is not the companies responsibility to feed you... it is yours.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 10:30 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biohazardbill
Union this union that... blah..

I have been in 4 unions within my construction career...they really did nothing for me...

People act like unions are there to save your jobs etc... well i hate to tell you but your work performance is what should save your job... not a bunch of people that will strike if they dont get their way. A job is not a right to have, more of a priveledge. People hire you because it will help them make money.... if your not cutting it then they should be able to fire you... for whatever reason. There are many people waiting to fill the shoes of these workers, and most would do it for a fraction of what some people make.

These people bitching about their companies not worrying about food in the mouths, or whatever, it is not the companies responsibility to feed you... it is yours.
work performance should determine pay, job security, etc.

more often than not, they don't. nepotism, and who you know more often than not determine pay, and job security.

and quite a few corporations want the best of both worlds - they want the ability to toss anyone out on the street at a moment's notice, but they expect "standard notice" when someone resigns or moves on, and in the mean time, they also want blind faith/loyalty to the corporation/officers.

it's frowned upon when someone actually uses a benefit such as vacation/sick leave, or tuition reimbursement - god forbid someone might end up injured...
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Old March 7th, 2006, 10:56 AM   #26
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Ok, first a few things...


nepotism: this is the primary means of getting a job in a fully unionized industry/plant/whatever. people act like only the white collar folks do this. It's actually more the opposite.

Call back rights: You only get them if you don't go and find any other work in the meantime. That means if you get laid off from Dearborn truck for instance and go work at Burger King, you've given up your call back rights. hence, alot of laid off workers will sit on their ass forever waiting for that call back.

Seniority: this works against a company more than anything. Joe Schmuck has seniority at a plant and therefore doesn't have to do X job as he's done it before. The biggest advantage overseas plants are more productive is because they job share and rotate round in teams so everybody is good at every job and nobody gets burnout. So, with seniority we get a bunch of geezers that refuse to do a particular job anymore because their union grunts that should be doing it instead. or it's a grunt level job and they demand a grunt comes out of the jobs bank to fill it rather than getting off their ass and helping out.

I still think the UAW needs to dissolve.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 11:34 AM   #27
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I'm very much aware of nepotism being rampant in any organization.

the intent of unionization is far and away different from where it is today.

my mentioning of the intention of the union is no more mis-applicable than stating that one's pay/job security should be based on performance

both scenarios exist in an ideallic world - one that neither of us currently live in.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 11:50 AM   #28
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UPDATE...

After talking with a coulple of operators I heard a common theme. The union has at least created a standard for job posting. Prior to the UAW they used the "Good Ol' Boy Network" to place jobs. Now there is a procedure. This is just a band aid for poor management.

Also, the UAW DID NOT negotiate higher wages. Wages were the same prior to the UAW as they are now. Job security is not an issue as they work 3 shifts and every other Saturday. Very high demand product.

It is interesting
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Old March 7th, 2006, 12:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Goode
UPDATE...

After talking with a coulple of operators I heard a common theme. The union has at least created a standard for job posting. Prior to the UAW they used the "Good Ol' Boy Network" to place jobs. Now there is a procedure. This is just a band aid for poor management.

Also, the UAW DID NOT negotiate higher wages. Wages were the same prior to the UAW as they are now. Job security is not an issue as they work 3 shifts and every other Saturday. Very high demand product.

It is interesting

it is, because it sounds similar to the situation the UAW faced trying to drum up support to unionize in southern Japanese plants. The pay was good, benefits were good, etc...and workers saw no reason to pay union dues.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 01:48 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lothos
it is, because it sounds similar to the situation the UAW faced trying to drum up support to unionize in southern Japanese plants. The pay was good, benefits were good, etc...and workers saw no reason to pay union dues.
It is exactly the same, but at this plant 60% chose to unionize.

I am neither anti or pro union, just don't see a benefit in this case. Good management team with excellent labor relations. No new benefit package, or any right of first refusal for jobs if they were layed off.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 05:11 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RockyMtnMike
They set rules that forces management to treat you somewhat like a human being,for example they cant walk up to you and say you'll be starting 2nd shift tomarrow, they can't tell you we're going to give your job to this guy because he is a relative of the boss (your seniority plays a big role in union's) I could go on and on about the good things that unions do. I know some people say they protect people that should be fired and they do to a point, but it's not like it used to be. If someone gets fired for coming to work drunk that person will be off for at least a year with counciling and then they might get another chance. One more thing for those people who say we are over paid and all we do is read newspapers well they are wrong. Chrysler has industrial engineers that has every job timed out, we work 54 seconds out of the minute and in extreme conditions in the summer months. In my department it is 85 degrees in the winter, in the summer I have seen it get to 120 and when I pull the heads back on my machine to change the cutting tools it will take your breath away and make you feel sick to your stomach. The smell of the oily coolant alone will make most people sick but then you add in the very humid hot tempature inside the machine, I have actually seen people pass out. With a union you have a right to free gatoraid, popsicles, ice, and cool down breaks. If you don't have a union management will tell you if you can't handle it then your fired. I don't mean to rant and rave but most people just don't understand everything that Union's do for people.
I may be ignorant, but doesnt the federal government have laws that mandate bathroom breaks, lunch breaks, etc every so often and regulate the hours you work, and also restrict firings for health related problems and on-the job injuries ?

It just seems to me that both sides of the great debate have been to the extremes and need to find a common ground to stand on.

For the record though it sounds like this is a well-managed facility. I have witnessed alot of the sitting around, leaving early and getting OT and insane pay, and general slacking of people at 'other' companies, so it still happens.
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Old March 7th, 2006, 05:57 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawierider
I may be ignorant, but doesnt the federal government have laws that mandate bathroom breaks, lunch breaks, etc every so often and regulate the hours you work, and also restrict firings for health related problems and on-the job injuries ?

It just seems to me that both sides of the great debate have been to the extremes and need to find a common ground to stand on.

For the record though it sounds like this is a well-managed facility. I have witnessed alot of the sitting around, leaving early and getting OT and insane pay, and general slacking of people at 'other' companies, so it still happens.
as it stands in our shop the bathrooms are "at will" but on the asseblly lines the guys only get a break every 2 hours and you cannot walk off your station or you will be writen up. three write ups gets you a day off. and it grows from there right up to firing. I know folks that have those "bottles" that strap to your leg so they don't have to leave the line.

and the policy as of now at DCX is to give no pay for less then 4 days off(even with a doctors note), after that you have to call esis(like aflac)but its in house. they pay you only with a doctors phone call to them(they don't call to get you paied) the company claims they give you 24 hours of casual abence but its up to the discrition of the forman or HR persons if you get paid, seem a little messed up because they hold it over your head like carrot, and then want Favors to get on thier good side. this is exactly what the union is in place to stop. I have seen the union fight these idiots and loose, but at least they tried to someone paid.
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