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Old September 28th, 2007, 04:27 PM   #81
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[QUOTE=One Arm Steve;743179
Are we talking about all the logging clear cuts?? I can only take so much looking at trees and stumps. Anywhere there is Great Lakes and clean rivers is great scenery though. If you want real scenery its about 1200 miles west.[/QUOTE]

No, we are talking about state and national land here in Michigan. Just like the pics you just posted in Grayling. Why did you bother to go there if you don't care about it?

The mentality about going out west is the same as those that say they will only snow ski in the Rockies. What that really means is that they only snow ski about 4 days per year. I snow ski at least once a week. It's not the best, but it beats sitting on my couch watching American Idol. Same goes for wheeling. Maybe I don't need to lock my jeep into 4 wheel drive when I travel to West Branch, Grayling, Indian River etc, but I can enjoy it on a 2 day weekend, just getting out and enjoying the fresh air.

And don't forget, winter wheeling in Michigan is a blast. Ever ran 2 feet of snow? There's not a single person on this site that can say that snow wheeling isn't challenging.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 04:41 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by One Arm Steve View Post
Grayling and Westbranch are clear cut to shit. I never said I don't care about the land and trails only that I don't care to fight for what I don't own. IE: State and National forests and the trails they contain.
Bullshit, there are miles and miles of beautiful trails with big mature trees. That's a less than glass half full attitude.

And you do own it.......... It's OUR state land.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 04:57 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by One Arm Steve View Post
Sweet wheres the deed to my land and if its mine then why should I have to fight to save the trails??? I should be able to do what I want when I want if that were true.

your just full of joy arent you?

you made your point, you have no desire to help out, you probably dont wheel either so it makes sense.

why continue to argue?
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Old September 28th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #84
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your just full of joy arent you?

you made your point, you have no desire to help out, you probably dont wheel either so it makes sense.

why continue to argue?
I think he want's someone to challenge him about being a leech on the community. Always complaining about, however still using, and yet never helping with the system of trails in Michigan. He's what we call a defeatest; a person that puts more effort into discouragement than it would take to help out.

It's useless to get decisively engaged with these people...
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Old September 28th, 2007, 05:16 PM   #85
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I got to love the tudes people have about doing their part. most just say they have no time. some say they have to work or do laundry. it doesn't matter. I have seen some folks that make their spare into trail time. its not a matter of want at that point. if you are going to make an effort just plan it into your day or month or year or something in between. www.atvoffroad.net tried a couple times to do thier part by taking on Geels north & south. they could hardly get anyone to go at all. like 4 guys did the whole trail twice that year. I went and cut trail at the Mounds. it right around the corner by compairison. we got 9 people to show up for each day sat & sunday. the people who use the mounds didn't even make an effort. I let them know weeks in advance and they turned their noses up. Only Big Daddy made the effort to bring hotdogs for the group that showed up. I have to say the priorities of people in our state are messed up. if you guys want to see a group that tears up the sand doing thier part check out the guys at www.sandlakeduners.com they have HUNDREDs of folks show up to do beach clean up and that group is barley bigger then ours and its 6-7 years old. just shows who gives and who takes.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 06:59 PM   #86
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2 things. Two trackers have been making serious progress with the national forest cleanups,open to anyone that wants to help.
And if all you go to is grayling and west branch u REALLY need to venture to other areas in Michigan and u will find wonderful scenery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old September 28th, 2007, 07:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by One Arm Steve View Post
To answer the original question: Why don't you care about saving the trails?

I don't get involved with politics and government I have never voted and never will. Live is short and I don't have time to debate things. We as a group cold do a lot for the state but we don't generate the cash that fishing and hunting do so the don't care about us they only care about the revenues. If fact I think that's the only reason state lands are open to the public. $$$$$$$$$$


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Old September 28th, 2007, 07:57 PM   #88
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Yetti, not sure when you did the trail trimming at the Mounds. Didn't know about it.

However, I do know that GLFWDA sponsored a cleanup there 2 years ago. We spent over $300 on dogs, chips water & pop. My wife, daughter, Mrs. KB8YFM & others spent several hours bbq'ing for about 75 people.

It's good to see that more than 1 group has put in the effort.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 08:43 PM   #89
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We spent over $300 on dogs, chips water & pop, My wife, daughter
must suck the wifey charges. how come you didn't invite me for sibligns?
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Old September 28th, 2007, 09:43 PM   #90
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After spending 45 minutes reading this, it seems to be a bit off topic, but very much right in line.

I DO CARE! So, I do what I can, and that is to support those who support our sport. You won't find me at all the GLFWDA Quarterlies, or all the Trail Clean ups, or all the ORV advisory board meetings. But I will do what I can.

I DO CARE, so I firmly belive that my support is CONTAGIOUS! I do what I can, and that makes a difference because I know for a fact that I have been inffluential in getting others INVOLVED.

I DO CARE, I have seen that my support and the infuence I have been (as small as it really is) has also been and ENCOURAGEMENT to the GLFWDA BOD and it keeps people enthused about being on the GLFWDA BOD to make the BIG differenece, that many of us can't do alone.

It is WAY too easy to feel that this gorgeous states government is bigger and better than us. It is VERY easy to read and hear of all the terrible off road DNR and UFS stories and ticketing situations upon us.
It is EXTREMELY easy, and Dangerouse to become overhelmed by these things, as it keeps us from doing what we must do.
BE THE VOICE! Be a voice.

Why don't you care? I have not really seen a good answer yet. Already, I have seen enough support on this thread and 2 others to overturn multipe rullings I've seen just this year alone. Common people!
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Old September 28th, 2007, 10:26 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
OK that leads me to my next question/assumption Are the quarterly meetings mandatory? I always assumed they were.
NOT mandatory (But highly requested:tonka: )

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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Why?

Normally you keep the "product" as easily accessible to the "consumer" as possible. I may be totally wrong, but if you had a quarterly in SE Michigan, you would probably have a record turnout.

I know I haven't been able to attend one because with my work schedule, its damn near impossible to drive 8 hours round trip for a single day.

At least have one quarterly in SE Michigan so people can at least see how it functions.
Good idea.

I'm afraid, as a west sider from the coast, the Mounds seems like it's 20 minutes from Detroit. How far is it actually (I honestly don't know)?

What would seem like a good S.E. town to capitalize on the metro population, but still attract the rest of the State too. It wouldn't need to be smack downtown, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
4107 have been active in the last 30 days.

Holy Whaaa!
Can we get 25% to join?!

Please?
Pretty please??
With gear lube on top???


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Originally Posted by BRUSER View Post
I do care about saving trails. I participate in the annual trail clean up on the west side, I have read all 110 pages of the BLM Plan for Moab. I have been to Moab and visited many of the places slated for closure / significant control.

I did at one time "donate" my $35.00 to GLFWD... That was in the "bad" days and once my money was in the system I heard nothing...( no one knew anything about my membership). I am on the verge of becoming a member again....( once you loose trust, it must be gained back in small increments).

I do not have experience in dealing with the powers that be, but if some one wants to mentor an old guy, I'd be happy to get deeply involved..... I just need to find the pathway.
2 things:

You are a dedicated man, sir, to read it ALL. I couldn't do it. I had to 'skim' to the parts that 'really' pertained to us! They make those things SO dry.

Please come to a quarterly if you're not sure. We have a new membership structure, new BOD, new Land Use Committee, new Bylaws. It's an organization that is truly re-creating itself to be Michigan's (And someday beyond, hopefully) premier 4x4 land use advocate. Just like the snowmobiles- heck WE'RE a 12 month a year sport!

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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
But, regardless of how much or how little a person does, I am firm believer that just adding to the $$$$ pool and pure numbers makes a big difference.
H. E. Double-toothpicks, YES it does!

Imagine being able to tell the DNR and Legislature that you have 10,000 members who spend an annual $1,000 a year on trail riding in Michigan.
$10,000,000 is getting pretty substantial.

Jim, helping out with ALL of these posts is an absolutely fantastic resource to the Assn!



Quote:
Originally Posted by KartRacer View Post
I would be more than happy to get involved and help take care of the local trails (one hour away) if I could find others willing to work/play. There really aren't any clubs over here that suit mosts needs.
Yea, everything is north of M-46 for the most part. The closest I know to you would be 4Given 4x4, the Sundowners, and maybe Cheap Thrills.

GLFWDA is attending and supporting the Kidds in the Mudd Extreme Farm in your area. I'm not all that close to you (Grand Haven/ Muskegon area), but you're welcome to wheel with me anytime.

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Originally Posted by ronprice View Post
Seasonal rds get closed by the county they are in with a vote of county members who show up at the meetings.
Ron is right for the most part. The County is in charge of County Road Abandonment Hearings. The more public input for keeping the road, the better the odds that the Board of County Road Commissioners will vote to keep it. The vote actually rests with the Road Commissioners, but they almost always vote with the side (for or against abandoning) that has the most support. Support can be in the form of a petition, but bodies do the most good. A room FILLED with people on one side will always win (too bad we never see more than 5 or 6 - hint).

Jim is actually talking about the National Forest's Travel Management Rule and the Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) that will be its result. What he said is TRUE of Forest Roads in ALL National Forests around the country. THAT'S what is causing the issues in the Eldorado National Forest (http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=57226). THAT'S why we're forming KOTARO, we're just using the M Triangle as a starting point and to 'refine' our method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
I'm sure you saw the posts and petitions for keep the roads open in Newaygo and Muskegon Counties. Would someone who attends the meeting bring a petition with them have any more leverage in your opinion? Do they have to PHYSICALLY ATTEND the meetings?
A bird in the hand (room) is worth two in the bush (on petition or form letter), BUT it's better to have a petition full of signatures than arrive empty handed and alone.

The Staple Road Abandonment Hearing is Thursday, October 4th, 4:30pm at the Muskegon County Road Commission offices on M-46 (Apple Avenue) a block East of Maple Island Road (B-31). (just in case someone doesn't want to see me go alone )


Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Ron,
No intention of flaming. Trail Fanatic can reply to this better but as I understand it, NFS roads are coming out on a new map. If the map does not show a previously open trail, it will be closed. By us gpsing them, we can contest the new map & they must add the pre-existing trail, unless, they can show just cause for closing it.

As I understand it, your description fits county roads.
See above

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Originally Posted by Yetti View Post
I got to love the tudes people have about doing their part. most just say they have no time. some say they have to work or do laundry. it doesn't matter. I have seen some folks that make their spare into trail time. its not a matter of want at that point. if you are going to make an effort just plan it into your day or month or year or something in between.
I started out because the TV programming from 7 - 8pm sucks. The news ends at 7 and good TV doesn't start til 8. That left me with 1 hour, 5 days a week. 5 hours a week = 260 hours a year! Just because TV sucks for an hour. The tough part is making sure to dedicate the hour to 4 wheeling LAND USE stuff (not pub posts:tonka: ).

Just use the time to sign petitions, read Land Use threads, write letters - or parts of letters that take more than an hour to complete. It doesn't take long to add up to quite a bit of support for the sport . . .and success!

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; September 28th, 2007 at 10:34 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 10:40 PM   #92
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Does anybody have any ties to the PBS Show Michigan Out of Doors? I wonder if GLFWDA could get soem time on there with some material from thier next run. Last time I saw any Michigan Wheeling on TV, it was with BDR on ABC or something.
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Old September 28th, 2007, 11:05 PM   #93
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Does anybody have any ties to the PBS Show Michigan Out of Doors?
I'd love to see them at the 10th Anniversary National Forest Trail Clean Up too!
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Old September 28th, 2007, 11:25 PM   #94
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I'd love to see them at the 10th Anniversary National Forest Trail Clean Up too!
My Sister is really good friends with Kelly Gotch over there. I tried hooking her up with you guys for the cleanup this year. But I think it gets scheduled right in the middle of a hunting season. Maybe turkey? She was really busy this year. PM me the info for next year and I will bring it up to her again. She really did like the idea.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 04:58 AM   #95
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My Sister is really good friends with Kelly Gotch over there. I tried hooking her up with you guys for the cleanup this year. But I think it gets scheduled right in the middle of a hunting season. Maybe turkey? She was really busy this year. PM me the info for next year and I will bring it up to her again. She really did like the idea.
Awesome Romey
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Old September 29th, 2007, 09:08 AM   #96
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Steve, there are very good reasons why you need to be a member for a clean up, I beleive it has to do with insurance and liability.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 09:18 AM   #97
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Yes, I posted that earlier. The DNR requires insurance. The insurance requires everyone to be a member.

By complaining about this you are only shooting the messengers.

Also, let me clarify a couple things. The Two Trackers do a "trail cleanup" This is sponsored by them and GLFWDA members helped out. There is no insurance requirement for that.

What DOES require insurance is NOT trail cleanup. It is TRAIL MAINTENANCE. This is a program by the state that maintains ORV routes and trails. This consists of making sure that the trails are properly brushed and all the proper sinage is in place. It is paid for by grant money thru the ORV sticker program. Sure, we clean up garbage as we come across it, but the purpose is to make sure that the trails are properly maintained.

Hope this helps.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 10:27 AM   #98
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I'm not in Michigan anymore,
but when I was as a member of the Sundowners we would go with the two-trackers on the Allegan clean-up.

Talk about the amount of garbage we would haul out, and usually a generous amount of cans, dumpster or so of tires etc.

And that one clean-up always went a LONG way with Forest rangers. They knew the club names, recognized vehicles etc, so when we went out to wheel we weren't hassled because we were the good guys.

A little goes a looooonnnnggggggg way.
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Old September 29th, 2007, 09:45 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Yes, I posted that earlier. The DNR requires insurance. The insurance requires everyone to be a member.

By complaining about this you are only shooting the messengers.

Also, let me clarify a couple things. The Two Trackers do a "trail cleanup" This is sponsored by them and GLFWDA members helped out. There is no insurance requirement for that.

What DOES require insurance is NOT trail cleanup. It is TRAIL MAINTENANCE. This is a program by the state that maintains ORV routes and trails. This consists of making sure that the trails are properly brushed and all the proper sinage is in place. It is paid for by grant money Through the ORV sticker program. Sure, we clean up garbage as we come across it, but the purpose is to make sure that the trails are properly maintained.

Hope this helps.
Thanks Jim.

You beat me to it!



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I'm not in Michigan anymore,
but when I was as a member of the Sundowners we would go with the two-trackers on the Allegan clean-up.

Talk about the amount of garbage we would haul out, and usually a generous amount of cans, dumpster or so of tires etc.

And that one clean-up always went a LONG way with Forest rangers. They knew the club names, recognized vehicles etc, so when we went out to wheel we weren't hassled because we were the good guys.

A little goes a looooonnnnggggggg way.
I remember those! Good times picking up over -swelled diapers out of the woods. :stan3: :tonka:


Seriously though, You're spot on! The NFS (We do it in Muskegon County's National Forest Lands now) LOVES it too. I'm going to start working on organizing one for GLFWDA to host in the fall to coincide with United's National Clean Up Day program. The TT do the West side, so I thought the east side for GLFWDA.

We'll see if I can get it pulled together for '08 or if it'll have to wait til '09, but we WILL do one!
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Old September 29th, 2007, 09:54 PM   #100
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If we can get a spring one organized on the westside, and I'm not working I'll come over to help.

I think that even one day of our time goes a very long way to showing that we are the good guys.
The locals see it, the officers see it etc. Should be able to get the local waste company to supply a dumpster for free, and then get a write-up in the local paper/news coverage.

The more of a united/pro-active front we provide the better off we are at keeping this sport alive.
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