need opinions. legal issues for doing my poker run. - Page 8 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 24th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #141
joe_jeep
welfare wheeler
 
joe_jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-03-06
Location: hazel park, mi
Posts: 5,687
iTrader: (37)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to joe_jeep
Default

it succeded in stopping the event and that was the object form the onset!
out of respect for white rhino and cc ill retract my statements, and just disagree.
joe_jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old September 24th, 2007, 02:06 PM   #142
jeepfreak81
81 inches of fun
 
jeepfreak81's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: Lennon, Mi
Posts: 12,189
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to jeepfreak81 Send a message via MSN to jeepfreak81 Send a message via Yahoo to jeepfreak81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
How can you support that statement? People using the State & USFS lands are how they make revenue. The intent is not to make revenue by issuing citations, but to make revenue by attracting clubs to the forest.

Another reason for the need for permits is to make the forest & trails available to all forms of outdoor activity to as many people as the land can support. If you were a group of motorcycle riders and want to do a run on the "heeby-jeeby trail" and a group of horseback riders wants to do a trail ride on the same day - on the same trail...can you not see the conflict? This is ANOTHER reason permits are needed - for scheduling.

If you want some more reasons permits are necessary shoot me a PM or ask here... although I'd think it should be becoming clearer. You support legal wheeling...so support the DNR Officers & the USFS Rangers. They're employed to help.

Kelly covered insurance.

It's a matter of getting educated - DNR & Rangers on this site can help with that. Although I'm sure lurking has gone on with MANY 4x4 sites across the nation, if you're a responsible wheeler and play by the rules (which is sounds like you are) it shouldn't be a problem.
Honestly I think he is partially right with that statement that they were not wanted in the forest. I sat through one ORV advisory meeting here in MI so far, (the other I had a scheduling conflict) and the one I went to somone one the board proposed legislating ORV's (directed at quads) should have a limited slip differential because of soil disturbance issues. To me that sounds like we are not wanted there. The fact the permit law is selectively enforced is a good jab at that fact - snowmobilers don't get it, cyclists don't get it, yet I see LONG lines of them on the trails all the time.

Many ignore the fact that trails are used in helping fight fires and many other things and by allowing us there they remain clear when they need them. We ARE needed there, as the USFS isn't going to pay to keep them clear as they grow over.

I don't agree with what he said about the ranger being on the forum, as I think it could be a good thing he is here, as long as it is truly to help us learn and provide input rather then 'spying' so they can issue tickets.
jeepfreak81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2007, 02:25 PM   #143
USMC 0369
Livin in Cal-tuckey
 
USMC 0369's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-27-06
Location: Twentynine Palms, CA
Posts: 852
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
Honestly I think he is partially right with that statement that they were not wanted in the forest. I sat through one ORV advisory meeting here in MI so far, (the other I had a scheduling conflict) and the one I went to somone one the board proposed legislating ORV's (directed at quads) should have a limited slip differential because of soil disturbance issues. To me that sounds like we are not wanted there. The fact the permit law is selectively enforced is a good jab at that fact - snowmobilers don't get it, cyclists don't get it, yet I see LONG lines of them on the trails all the time.
I'm willing to concede this point because I'm not actually there and don't see it for myself. Yes, that does sound like a prejudice against Full Size (FS) 4x4's. But, when you go into the forest and see where some ass-hat and his buddies have ripped a new mud bog through an otherwise closed or just soggy trail...then I'd say they bring it on themselves to an extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
Many ignore the fact that trails are used in helping fight fires and many other things and by allowing us there they remain clear when they need them. We ARE needed there, as the USFS isn't going to pay to keep them clear as they grow over.
This EXACT premise is the foundation of our "Adopt-a-Trail" program here in Cali. Working WITH the rangers to adopt trails and maintain them FOR the forest service. It actually becomes our responsibility. Also there is a program call the OHV Volunteers that help "police" for forests. It's like a citizen's patrol, only for Off Highway Vehicles. We've had a LOT of success with the program, but as I understand it, Michigan hasn't decided on designating which trails are even to stay open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
I don't agree with what he said about the ranger being on the forum, as I think it could be a good thing he is here, as long as it is truly to help us learn and provide input rather then 'spying' so they can issue tickets.
I'd think knowing they are on here, would discourage any activity that would be cause for a ticket. But then we get into the "DNR didn't LIKE something discussion" again, and I'm not able to speak intelligently about that.
USMC 0369 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2007, 02:37 PM   #144
joe_jeep
welfare wheeler
 
joe_jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-03-06
Location: hazel park, mi
Posts: 5,687
iTrader: (37)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to joe_jeep
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81 View Post
I don't agree with what he said about the ranger being on the forum, as I think it could be a good thing he is here, as long as it is truly to help us learn and provide input rather then 'spying' so they can issue tickets.
your absolutely right jeepfreak81! it could be a great thing! i just feel in this case it wasnt. im in the minority though. hopefully im wrong.
joe_jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2007, 02:46 PM   #145
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,053
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Unfortunately I have been involved enough to agree that at the state level, the people representing the DNR appear to wish we were not even in the woods. We are just a hassle to them. And, with a few examples of tickets over the years, there are at least some DNR officers who feel the same way. Is this the majority? Not necessarily.

But as far as District Ranger is concerned, there is the possibility that he was bringing this up full well knowing that it was too late in the game for a permit, thus effectively shutting it down. On the other hand, at this time, until proven different, I would prefer to take the "glass half full" attitude & hope that he will become more proactively involved.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2007, 03:23 PM   #146
joe_jeep
welfare wheeler
 
joe_jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-03-06
Location: hazel park, mi
Posts: 5,687
iTrader: (37)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to joe_jeep
Default

the cool head of white rhino strikes again. im sorry but its been very hard to see the glass half full for me lately. seems we never hear any good news.
i hope your right though.
joe_jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2007, 03:29 PM   #147
liv2mx
i like jungle gym's.
 
liv2mx's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: silver lake and up in the air building america
Posts: 11,175
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

there was not time......he did not want us there... because this whole area we were doing the run in has become, as he stated... (a problum area) i live 2 miles from these trails.. i said to him why are you not there on mem day labor day 4 th of july???? at 3 am when there is 5 trucks stuck in the mud hole, everyone is drunk and there is 100 donughts on the dirt roads..... no responce!!!! if you saw what they did to close firetower with our money it would make anyone sick....i am done with this subject it totally pisses me off..
liv2mx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 09:25 AM   #148
FORD FLARESIDE
Someday, yeah Someday
 
FORD FLARESIDE's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-09-06
Location: Comstock Park
Posts: 21,484
iTrader: (23)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2mx View Post
there was not time......he did not want us there... because this whole area we were doing the run in has become, as he stated... (a problum area) i live 2 miles from these trails.. i said to him why are you not there on mem day labor day 4 th of july???? at 3 am when there is 5 trucks stuck in the mud hole, everyone is drunk and there is 100 donughts on the dirt roads..... no responce!!!! if you saw what they did to close firetower with our money it would make anyone sick....i am done with this subject it totally pisses me off..
liv2mx, you are a good guy, and I know you are upset,...........but this whole thing could have been handled better, by both sides. For Goodness Sake, do not lose your cool. That is one of the things that make people want to hang around you.
Please do not piss and run on this. You live in this area, we need you to help keep it open. If you don't like what is being done, then I suggest you try to get into your local politics. Run for a trustee position, or Planning, heck,.......you could even run for supervisor. Get some local government on your side, and make a change.

I'm just tired of people giving up.
Here is my statement for all, if you dont like what happening, do something about or please do not post, because what you say is not going to make a change for the good.
Flame away.
FORD FLARESIDE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 09:39 AM   #149
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 21,053
iTrader: (21)
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Default

Quote I once heard that I try to live by.

"The things in your life won't change, unless YOU change the things in your life"
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 10:08 AM   #150
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,446
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by liv2mx View Post
there was not time......he did not want us there... because this whole area we were doing the run in has become, as he stated... (a problum area) i live 2 miles from these trails.. i said to him why are you not there on mem day labor day 4 th of july???? at 3 am when there is 5 trucks stuck in the mud hole, everyone is drunk and there is 100 donughts on the dirt roads..... no responce!!!! if you saw what they did to close firetower with our money it would make anyone sick....i am done with this subject it totally pisses me off..
Theres not time?

It would have taken a couple hours to do the proposed map, and it would have taken a max 2 days to get a permit. This could have been easily done.
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 10:42 AM   #151
liv2mx
i like jungle gym's.
 
liv2mx's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: silver lake and up in the air building america
Posts: 11,175
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

i am not going to argue about this..yes it is good les has gotten involved on trying to get the law stated correctly..i commend him for that..but kelly you have no idea about this area and all the crap that happens around here..alot could easily be prevented. this was in my eyes his way of preventing us to do this run. that is my opinion.. i have worked with the dnr about things around here and nothing changes it just gets worse. les did state to me if i turned this stuff in and he approved it, the run was still possible.he never e mailed the form to me..monday i recieved a blank e mail from him. this was not for money though and it was not a organized club run....that is one of my problums. like i said i dont want to argue...i am not one to ever back down from anything..but i am not wanting to go through all this crap when i have all the rights to already be there. if i was to get pulled over out there and get harrased i would not be happy, wich in case causes me to do stupid stuff...so i will not put myself in that situation.... kelly do you want to be liable for 50 vehicles in the woods that might drive in the wrong spot,,,then you recieve the fine!!! sorry i dont have that kind of money...
liv2mx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 10:48 AM   #152
liv2mx
i like jungle gym's.
 
liv2mx's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-10-05
Location: silver lake and up in the air building america
Posts: 11,175
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

and through all of this what about the owner of the bar that was going to put all his eggs on the table for this...a accident happen then we have a signed paper that holds his insurance liable....all you guys telling me this could still happend...yes it was possible......but not at all a smart thing to do...think about this.....
just remember we live in a sociaty that will sue if all possible. i have seen this first hand..having a mx track on my property..i have also seen friends sue other friends...

Last edited by liv2mx; September 25th, 2007 at 10:52 AM.
liv2mx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 11:50 AM   #153
clarkstoncracker
lol
 
clarkstoncracker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-03-05
Location: OC - MI
Posts: 42,446
iTrader: (40)
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to clarkstoncracker
Default

you could limit the run to 74 people.......
__________________
clarkstoncracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 12:15 PM   #154
MiniJ
Senior Member
 
MiniJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-17-06
Location: Lansing, MI
Posts: 135
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
If you don't like what is being done, then I suggest you try to get into your local politics. Run for a trustee position, or Planning, heck,.......you could even run for supervisor. Get some local government on your side, and make a change.

I'm just tired of people giving up.
Here is my statement for all, if you dont like what happening, do something about or please do not post, because what you say is not going to make a change for the good.
Flame away.
This just about sums it all up....I know we are all busy and have real lives, but if you want the trails open and legal, then get involved. At least join GLFWDA and then jump in at your local level.

It would be nice if we had a big lobby group like the snowmobilers do- and there's no reason we can't. But, we have too many people that seem willing to throw in the towel instead of following the rules and fighting for their rights.

Don't back down, get involved. It takes ALL of us to make a difference.
MiniJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2007, 03:19 PM   #155
joe_jeep
welfare wheeler
 
joe_jeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-03-06
Location: hazel park, mi
Posts: 5,687
iTrader: (37)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to joe_jeep
Default

ive talked to a couple guys from msg at the last doa(i think one was ironman)
and they were talking about how they werent sure if they would even get the permit till the last minute. and that it took quite a while?? mabey drummond is different?? perhaps its easier down here, i dont know.
i cant see it being really quick and easy unless it involves raising taxes!
i was under the impression it took along time and there were no guarantees it was gona be approved. ill bet ironman chimes in on this. any sofo guys wanna comment on how hard it was to get a permit for snofari(i have no clue, coulda been easy for threm)?? any clubs done a run with a permit and how hard was it to get?
joe_jeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Land Use > Rules, Regulations, Trail, and ORV Park Chat

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:37 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.28362 seconds with 65 queries