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Old September 22nd, 2007, 06:38 AM   #101
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Still looking for clarification on the "insurance" issue...................................
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 06:54 AM   #102
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This is from the non-commercial group FAQ's

13. Does the regulation require that applicants for a noncommercial group use permit obtain bonding or insurance?

No. Noncommercial group uses involve or potentially involve First Amendment activities. Requiring bonding or insurance as a precondition to the issuance of a permit for expressive conduct could be construed as an undue burden on the exercise of First Amendment rights. In other words, requiring an applicant to obtain bonding or insurance before a permit is issued could be seen as putting a price tag on speech in violation of the United States Constitution.



It's from this form DR gave us off the website:

http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/perm...u-q-a-2002.doc

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Last edited by kb8ymf; September 22nd, 2007 at 06:59 AM.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 09:21 AM   #103
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i have no problum pulling the permit. i dont think there will be over 75 people but you never know. last year we had 62 people sign in.i am glad les is willing to work with us. but i dont want to be harrased. he also stated that i need to give him a excact wrought on were we are going and if there is any damage or problums it will go back on me. he stated to me the insurance that the bar owner has will cover any insurance issues.i really want to do this run but what was going to be a fun laid back day, has turned into a big headache.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 09:22 AM   #104
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pat i did not get any message from you? i will be at work today until 2 call me there 231 869 5359.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 09:26 AM   #105
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les was going to e mail me the form for the permit. i still have not recieved it.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 09:31 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE View Post
Thank You District Ranger for stepping up to the plate.
Thanks DR, hopefully you can help more in the future.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 09:34 AM   #107
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les was going to e mail me the form for the permit. i still have not recieved it.
You can get it off there website, go get it yourself
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 10:12 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by liv2mx View Post
i have no problum pulling the permit. i dont think there will be over 75 people but you never know. last year we had 62 people sign in.i am glad les is willing to work with us. but i dont want to be harrased. he also stated that i need to give him a excact wrought on were we are going and if there is any damage or problums it will go back on me.
Yes, that is one of the problems with organizing the event. He most likely will want you to put the route on a PLAT MAP. Do you know what those are?

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he stated to me the insurance that the bar owner has will cover any insurance issues.
This is an interesting concept.

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i really want to do this run but what was going to be a fun laid back day, has turned into a big headache.
I guess, welcome to the world of organizing events. It DOES get easier around the 10th time or so.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 10:31 AM   #109
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hmmm....... this is putting an interesting twist on the DNR permits on state land. "IF" requirements for bonding or insurance on Federal land is a first amendment issue, I would think it would apply on state land. Therefore, we shouldn't need those items for a local state land run. IE: Spring opener, Snofari, Snoblind, etc.

hmmmm........ should ask Carla
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 10:51 AM   #110
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[QUOTE=kb8ymf;731336]Yes, that is one of the problems with organizing the event. He most likely will want you to put the route on a PLAT MAP. Do you know what those are?


i have them for the whole area.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:00 AM   #111
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Thank you District Ranger

x3
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:00 AM   #112
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You can get it off there website, go get it yourself
as usuall you guys want to show up go wheel and go home. i said if i did this this year i was not getting stuck doing it all myself like last year. this would be diffrent if a club would help and it was organized. last year i did all the trails and givaways and worked with the bar owner for food afterwards...no help from anyone but a couple of my local friends. i am so ready to cancell and just go out with my friends for a fun ride and not worry about pleasing people i do not know...especially how half the people on this board talk to me. i am all about doing things the right way but i also have a business to run and other things to take care of.this was fun when all of us can get together and wheel but it seems like everyone wants to make things difficult now.i am also not having fun if i need to worry about a dnr guy sitting in the woods looking for something to give me a ticket for.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:01 AM   #113
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Just reading this thread just confirms my plan to move to Colorado in a couple years...

There is absolutely NO reason it should be this difficult, so much hassle, for a unorganized TRAILRIDE. The ONLY organization I see here is that he called it a 'poker run' and X amount of people said he will meet with them to wheel. There is no admission fee, the $10 is charged by the campground for their camping.

I totally understand your point of view liv2mx, sadly this is exactly what they want. Great for Michigans economy huh?
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:02 AM   #114
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So the insurance is to cover any damage done to the dirt trails? Splash to much water out of a mud hole, you get charged for it. Hmmmmm???/

Never mind the TONS and TONS of trash the offroad folks haul out of the woods that the locals dump. Heaven forbid people want to use the trails that THEY keep clean...........Better have your permits!!!!!

Sorry, just very frustrating.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:03 AM   #115
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Quote:
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Just reading this thread just confirms my plan to move to Colorado in a couple years...

There is absolutely NO reason it should be this difficult, so much hassle, for a unorganized TRAILRIDE. The ONLY organization I see here is that he called it a 'poker run' and X amount of people said he will meet with them to wheel. There is no admission fee, the $10 is charged by the campground for their camping.

I totally understand your point of view liv2mx, sadly this is exactly what they want. Great for Michigans economy huh?
you hit it right on the button!!
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:05 AM   #116
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Quote:
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So the insurance is to cover any damage done to the dirt trails? Splash to much water out of a mud hole, you get charged for it. Hmmmmm???/

Never mind the TONS and TONS of trash the offroad folks haul out of the woods that the locals dump. Heaven forbid people want to use the trails that THEY keep clean...........Better have your permits!!!!!

Sorry, just very frustrating.
i did the cleanup in whitehall filled my truck up 3 times. now i want to go out and use the trails and i must pay for it?? i pay taxes??
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:12 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan View Post
So the insurance is to cover any damage done to the dirt trails? Splash to much water out of a mud hole, you get charged for it. Hmmmmm???/

Never mind the TONS and TONS of trash the offroad folks haul out of the woods that the locals dump. Heaven forbid people want to use the trails that THEY keep clean...........Better have your permits!!!!!

Sorry, just very frustrating.
NO!! DON'T SPLASH WATER OUT OF THE PUDDLES.


By the way, watch out for the logging trucks

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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:13 AM   #118
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i did the cleanup in whitehall filled my truck up 3 times. now i want to go out and use the trails and i must pay for it?? i pay taxes??
EXACTLY!!!!

I wonder how many tickets/fines are givin for dumping.
It's hard to catch someone in the middle of the night with a truck load of garbage dumping it in the woods, but we make it easy for them to give us tickets.
Log on here, get a date, time, and location. We aren't trying to hide anything.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:25 AM   #119
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NO!! DON'T SPLASH WATER OUT OF THE PUDDLES.


By the way, watch out for the logging trucks

But they must use those earth friendly tires on those trucks because my jeep is the only thing that causes erosion.
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Old September 22nd, 2007, 11:53 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
hmmm....... this is putting an interesting twist on the DNR permits on state land. "IF" requirements for bonding or insurance on Federal land is a first amendment issue, I would think it would apply on state land. Therefore, we shouldn't need those items for a local state land run. IE: Spring opener, Snofari, Snoblind, etc.

hmmmm........ should ask Carla
EXACTLY what I was thinking! SoFO fronted about $1000 to get SnoFari "LEGAL" and only about $500 was returned of that, the State kept the other $500. So, that is a HUGE cost that needed to be absorn=bed somehow, and one of the complaints of the run was the cost! How the heck can you do any good when a group has to keep shelling out $$$$ just ot go on a trail ride? Even Trail Clean Ups are organized, so I bet pretty soon we will have to get a permit to pick up other peoples trash on the trails we like to use and keep clean! Am I wrong here? Are we protected on this first amendment issue?
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