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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:12 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by liv2mx View Post
they will be there looking for any thing they do not like and will be giving tickets out
Yes, that about sums it up..... doesn't matter if it's LEGAL or not, jut matters if they LIKE it or not.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:13 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I just wish that the "District Ranger" posted the law for everybody to see, instead of making a pseudo account and acting as if he was interested in the trail ride.
He may very well have been interested in going on the run. We wheel with our USFS Ranger [Greg] all the time. Hell he helps work on people's rigs and we help him work on his.

And yes, he brings his ticket book with him and cites people doing illegal activities if he sees them. He's never ticketed OUR GROUP, mostly because he uses common sense and knows that if we do something F-ed up it's out of ignorance. So he educates us as a group and then we don't do that particular thing again. Mostly he tickets people camping illegally, or campfires that are not in a ring or against the fire danger rating. But it's cool to have a ranger with you because he knows the forest in depth and I always learn something new about it. But clearly in Michigan, these types of relationships have yet to be forged.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:19 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
He may very well have been interested in going on the run. We wheel with our USFS Ranger [Greg] all the time. Hell he helps work on people's rigs and we help him work on his.

And yes, he brings his ticket book with him and cites people doing illegal activities if he sees them. He's never ticketed OUR GROUP, mostly because he uses common sense and knows that if we do something F-ed up it's out of ignorance. So he educates us as a group and then we don't do that particular thing again. Mostly he tickets people camping illegally, or campfires that are not in a ring or against the fire danger rating. But it's cool to have a ranger with you because he knows the forest in depth and I always learn something new about it. But clearly in Michigan, these types of relationships have yet to be forged.

THAT'S the kind of person we need to pop in here! Someone who has an interest in BOTH sides and is willing to educate people.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SKIP View Post
As might have been noted somewhere above the discrepancy in numbers 75 vs. 20 is the difference between the USFS & MiDNR.
I did see that! I'm looking for the USFS laws right now.

However, I would think that to be 'safe' you'd just go with which ever law is the most strict. I would bring it to the DNR's attention at an ORV advisory board meeting if permits are overlapping and not accepted by one agency or the other, forcing us to buy two permits for the same event.

And as for the comment about DNR officers ticketing people on a whim because they don't "like" something... I gotta call that one out because the DNR has to operate within their own laws. It'd be like a cop issuing you a public indecency ticket because he doesn't "like" your haircut.

Nobody has yet come forward with how much it would cost per person to just get the damn permits and insurance as required.

But don't worry, I'll research that for you next.

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Originally Posted by Jeeperz Creeperz View Post
THAT'S the kind of person we need to pop in here! Someone who has an interest in BOTH sides and is willing to educate people.
Well, if they keep getting flamed I would think they'll continue to try to stay below radar and it never hurts to INVITE them along for a day on the dirt. They're people too, and I'll bet vital parts of.... Kelly's anatomy (sorry but I haven't lived in Mi for a long time, so I can't be sure) that at least SOME of them enjoy the sport too.

Last edited by USMC 0369; September 21st, 2007 at 07:24 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:45 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

R 299.921 Definitions....
...(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated,
scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.

Bottom line.... # ii Applies - there will be more than 20 people there, so it is an "Event". Now that it is determined to be an event, get the permit and charge folks for entry. If the permit is $75 and the minimum number of people show up (20) that's just $3.25 per person. I would rather pay that all day than risk a ticket.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I 100% disagree. .......
And I'm sorry, but I don't see where anybody slammed him anywhere. It seems like people are having a conversation.
Lets see...threats of harassment charges against him...that he is way out of line.....accusations that his intent is malicious....that they just want money from the tickets.... the overreacting to “everyone will be getting tickets” hearsay.....accusations of entrapment. Sounds like a warm and fuzzy welcome and come on in and share your knowledge!

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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
What this forum needs is the voice of the law. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not, we need to know what they are. If we don't agree with it, then we submit our ideas for the laws to be changed.
Ain’t that the truth! But we need not shoot the messengers. Pick our battles wisely and follow the rules of the system. And don’t expect them to tell us the law. It would be nice if they would, but it has always been the citizens responsibility to know the laws. Thats where organizations, like UFWDA and GLFWDA can be instrumental, by helping to educate us on the law.

Yes it all sucks, but it is what it is until the laws are changed. Being confrontational with those who have to enforce the laws will not do our cause any good. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy in this struggle to be able to wheel on public land.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:03 PM   #67
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I called Liv2mx this morning and left a message.

Talked to Les this morning too.

Nothing said that wasn't covered here.



I wouldn't cancel.


PS: 20 people is on State land, 75 people for Federal land.

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; September 21st, 2007 at 08:16 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:10 PM   #68
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Um gang...

Can someone else please look at this and tell me if I'm crazy...

A chart showing the "Land Use Fees" for Michigan. It's a .pdf file.

If I'm reading that thing correctly, and assuming that off-road trail riding is considered "VERY HIGH INTENSITY" activity...the permit could be a MINIMUM of $950??? Someone help, my brain is about to explode. Notice I made an assumption, nobody freak out I'm most likely wrong (I hope)

Oh, and I found a little blurb about the insurance too...

Same location as before:

Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

(m) To hold events including, but not limited to, races, endurance
contests, tournaments, or trail rides, unless the events are conducted pursuant to a permit. The permit may include a charge to the sponsor or permittee for the use of the land. An event may require a performance bond to ensure permit compliance and may require public liability insurance. The department may waive the requirement for a permit for events where the number of participants is 20 or more individuals if the department determines that the event will not require department oversight, and the event will have a minimal impact on the resource and on the use of the lands by others.


What that tells me is this: Need to get some DNR buddies to see RESPONSIBLE wheeling within GL4X4 or your local club. Gain a reputation for being stewards of the land, not "yee-haw rednecks" (I apologize if you resemble that remark) out to tear up the country side. Then fees will be lower and possibly no need for insurance at all.

Last edited by USMC 0369; September 21st, 2007 at 08:20 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:17 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Brods View Post
Pick our battles wisely and follow the rules of the system. And don’t expect them to tell us the law. It would be nice if they would, but it has always been the citizens responsibility to know the laws. Thats where organizations, like UFWDA and GLFWDA can be instrumental, by helping to educate us on the law.

Yes it all sucks, but it is what it is until the laws are changed. Being confrontational with those who have to enforce the laws will not do our cause any good. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy in this struggle to be able to wheel on public land.

How familiar are you with the DNR? The Michigan DNR are well known for making their own 'rules' and calling them laws, or bending the wording of the old, poorly written laws to mean something totally different then intended. Even the UFWDA and GLFWDA have problems interpretting some of them I think.

WE HAVE to be on the defensive all of the time because as responsible wheelers we get blamed for all the dumb rednecks that go out tearing it up.

What's funny is these people don't realize the additional tourism we could get and help bring this state out of the hole if they would just open more trails and help educate the people the correct way, maybe PARTNER with GLFWDA, instead of waiting at the trail to bust us for not understanding the law properly and tarnishing their image as well as driving tourism AWAY.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
Um gang...

Can someone else please look at this and tell me if I'm crazy...

A chart showing the "Land Use Fees" for Michigan. It's a .pdf file.

If I'm reading that thing correctly, and assuming that off-road trail riding is considered "VERY HIGH INTENSITY" activity...the permit could be a MINIMUM of $950??? Someone help, my brain is about to explode. Notice I made an assumption, nobody freak out I'm most likely wrong (I hope)
Your forgetting this "event" is happening on USFS lands and not MI State lands. Different policies regarding permits!
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:18 PM   #71
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That's for STATE land Nick.

You need to be looking at the HMNF's site.


http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/hmnf/index.shtml
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:20 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

R 299.921 Definitions....
...(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated,
scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.
I'm not familiar with the area you are talking about, so I don't know if it is state or federal land. I assume its federal since you are dealing with the NFS. If your poker run takes place on federal land, then this doesn't neccesarily apply.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 08:25 PM   #73
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Okay...My Bad.... I'm shifting gears into Federal Lands Acts. I've put a call into Greg to ask him some questions about juristiction, application of laws and permits in State vs. USFS lands. I'll try to keep it broad based.

I'm also gonna try to see if he knows anyone (personally) local that we can talk to in order to get some straight answers. But it seems TF knows some already, it may just be redundant.

I'm off to search more stuff. I've downloaded some great State oriented .pdf's that will help in the future! ;)
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:15 PM   #74
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This is a great topic I just read all 4 pages.

My question is, Who patrols the Fed land, NFS right?

How does that give jurisdiction to State DNR, on Federal land?

Flame me I don't care I'm educating myself.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:17 PM   #75
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I don't recall the specific chapter & verse, but essentially the Federal land will follow state DNR rules as far as things like ORV, hunting, and fishing rules.

Myself, I'm disappointed that the USFS and MDNR folks in the audience don't speak up and join in. It's a great opportunity to communicate, cooperate, and help us (their customers) enjoy our public lands in a safe, sane, and legal manner.

I'm a huge fan of the USFS (a government bureaucracy I don't mind paying taxes for) and have never personally had a bad MDNR experience. I'd love to see an "Ask The Ranger" or "Ask the MDNR CO" forum.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:21 PM   #76
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I'd love to see an "Ask The Ranger" or "Ask the MDNR CO" forum.


Holy crap what an idea it will show open communication, involvement, dare I say cooperation on both sides!
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:41 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
I don't recall the specific chapter & verse, but essentially the Federal land will follow state DNR rules as far as things like ORV, hunting, and fishing rules.

Myself, I'm disappointed that the USFS and MDNR folks in the audience don't speak up and join in. It's a great opportunity to communicate, cooperate, and help us (their customers) enjoy our public lands in a safe, sane, and legal manner.

I'm a huge fan of the USFS (a government bureaucracy I don't mind paying taxes for) and have never personally had a bad MDNR experience. I'd love to see an "Ask The Ranger" or "Ask the MDNR CO" forum.
x3

where is the petition for that.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:48 PM   #78
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I said it 2 pages ago and it keeps getting debated but the bottom line is that he needs to apply for the permit or risk the possibility of getting a ticket.

This thread seems to be new news to everyone but it's not. The Troll's tried a variety of different wording to get around the permit issues. Fees were for food, hall rental, etc. Didn't matter. 20 people on government land needed a permit.

Yes, I would love to see this challenged, but who has the resources to challenge it? Maybe kb8ymf can answer this but I don't think UFWDA has ever attempted to fight this.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:55 PM   #79
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Sorry if it's been stated but. Why is it we could have a poker run on our road's, the one's people use everyday(I69 or Boardman road etc) but not on our roads that we use but call "trail's"? If it's over 50" wide it's a road right?
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Old September 21st, 2007, 09:59 PM   #80
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I pulled this from the United Four Wheel Drive web page. This may or may not help but here it is:



U.S. FOREST SERVICE SPECIAL USE PERMIT RULE

Effective August 12, 2004, your club or organization may be required to obtain a special use permit if you have 75 people traveling Forest Service roads or if you have less than 75 people and charge a fee for your event.

OVERVIEW

WHAT WAS THE RULE BEFORE?

Prior to August 12, 2004 your club could hold a trail ride by using roads in your National Forest without having to obtain a special use permit, even if you charged a fee for your event, if your event was limited to the use of roads and you didn’t use any other forest lands such as campgrounds or other areas for “staging”.

WHAT IS THE RULE NOW?

As of August 12, 2004 your club will be REQUIRED to obtain a special use permit (SUP) if you have more than 75 PEOPLE in attendance at your event (either as spectators or as participants):

Even if you limit the use of the forest to Forest Service roads
Even if you do NOT charge an event fee
Even if you DO charge an event fee
IN-DEPTH EXPLANATION

BASIC THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW
Commerical use: any use or activity where a participation fee is charged OR where the primary purpose is the sale of goods or services.
Noncommercial use: any use or activity that does not involve a commercial use as defined above.
Group Use: an activity conducted on National Forest System lands that involves a group of 75 or more people, either as participants or spectators.
Guiding: providing services or assistance for pecuniary remuneration or other gain to individuals or groups on National Forest System lands.
Recreation event: a recreational activity conducted on National Forest System lands for which an entry or participation fee is charged, such as animal, vehicle or boat races; dog trials; fishing contents; rodeos; adventure games; and fairsl.
WHEN DOES MY CLUB ACTIVITY OR EVENT NEED A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

Under this new rule your club is required to obtain a special use permit if:
You use roads, campgrounds, or other lands in your National Forest;
AND

You have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event, even if you do NOT charge a fee.
Note: This includes passengers and children. For example if you have 25 vehicles attending a club ride using roads in your National Forest and those 25 vehicles have 75 people when you count the drivers and all their passengers, then you have “more than 75 people”.
OR

You have less than 75 people if you charge a fee (engage in a recreation event).
You are not required to obtain a permit if you have less than 75 people and you do NOT charge a fee.

HOW DO I APPLY FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?
You must apply to the District Ranger or Forest Supervisor having authority over the area you will be using.
You must provide your club name, address, and the name and address of the club contact handling the application.
If you have more than 75 people attending or participating in your event and you do NOT charge a fee you are engaging in a NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE.

For Noncommerical Group Use you must do the two items listed above AND
Describe your activity or event
Indicate the location of the event (which roads, areas, or other places within the Forest)
Indicate the number of participants and spectators expected at your event
Include the date, and starting time and ending time of your event
The name of the person in your club who will sign a special use authorization (that person must be 21 years old or older)
If you are charging a fee, regardless of the number of people attending, you are engaging in a RECREATION EVENT.

For Recreation Events you must do the first two items listed above AND
Provide a certificate in good standing if your club is incorporated (if specificially requested by the Forest Service)
Provide eveidence that your club has the financial capability to conduct and end the event
Describe the event, including maps, so the Forest Service can determine the feasibility of the activity, any benefits to be provided to the public, the safety of the event, the lands used, and compliance with laws, regulations, and other orders
Provide any other additional information requested by you in writing from the Forest Service
HOW DO I RECEIVE A SPECIAL USE PERMIT?

NONCOMMERCIAL GROUP USE: If your event is categorized as a noncommercial group use your application for a permit is approved unless you receive a denial within 48 hours of applying for the permit.

A noncommercial group use application must be approved if:
Authorization is not prohibited by Forest Service order or by Federal, State, or local law.
Authorization is consistent with the Forest Plan
The event does not materially impact the resources of the forest
The event will not delay or prohibit use of the area by the Forest Service or other existing uses
The event does not violate State and local public health laws such as sanitation, availability of drinking water, etc.
The event will not post a substantial danger to public safety
The event does not include military training exercises by private individuals or entities; and
A person 21 years old or older has signed, or will sign, the authorization within 60 days of receipt
RECREATION EVENT: If your event is categorized as a recreation event your application permit must be specifically approved or denied by the Forest Service and only becomes effective if signed by both the Forest Service and your club representative within 60 days of receipt.
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