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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:24 PM   #41
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Where I struggle with both the USFS AND the State DNR is that the hunters and especially the snowmobilers NEVER have been required to get a permit. The most the hunters have to do is get a camp permit. I think that is $50 from what I remember. How often do you see 20 or more snowmobilers up north on a ride in the winter, PLENTY OFTEN!
There are other groups that congregate but don't necessarily make it public knowledge and therefore stay below the radar
There are two issues taking place here.
1. The laws have not recognized a 'non organized' gathering that DOES NOT POST SIGNS IN THE WOODS. The current laws reference sign installation and removal and they are always suprised when we tell them we don't put any up!
2. This is another 'revenue opportunity'. i.e. We have someone using the forest and the Gov't bureacrats believe that this must be managed. I know there will always be the 'Right to Assemble' argument but 'prairie dogging it', or poking your head above the radar will always be cause to attract attention. Which was done here.
As everyone else pointed out, the DNR and USFS officers are doing us a big injustice, which could be (my opinion) used as proof of entrapment if they are here reading the happenings and activity of the community but fail to comment on what might be taking place that is incorrect, again , my opinion.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 04:45 PM   #42
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Basically they are only going to be happy with two outcomes.

1- They ticket the hell out of us and we continue to pay up and they get a great source of revenue.

2- We get so pissed off that we stop using trails in Michigan and the tree huggers are happy and keep electing their people into office.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:03 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler View Post
Basically they are only going to be happy with two outcomes.

1- They ticket the hell out of us and we continue to pay up and they get a great source of revenue.

2- We get so pissed off that we stop using trails in Michigan and the tree huggers are happy and keep electing their people into office.
3- Pay for the permits and insurance and wheel it legal according to the State's requirements.

The ONLY problem with that is: What is FACT on what permits are needed and cost for the permit? And how much insurance is needed?
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:06 PM   #44
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my problum is jack(sandy corners) has guided tours through all parts of were i was going and he has no permits. he also charges alot of money and is making a profit on this. this was stated to the ranger.so when is jack getting his tickets? we are doing a free event that is a trail ride. i am not asking for any profit. yes federal laws and state(dnr) are diffrent. he stated that it is 20 in state trails. 60 people, not vehicles. on federal. this whole deal pisses me off!!! the biggest thing is they are spying on us in a 4x4 orianted forum. no freedom or rights anymore i guess...............
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by liv2mx View Post
my problum is jack(sandy corners) has guided tours through all parts of were i was going and he has no permits. he also charges alot of money and is making a profit on this. this was stated to the ranger.so when is jack getting his tickets? we are doing a free event that is a trail ride. i am not asking for any profit. yes federal laws and state(dnr) are diffrent. he stated that it is 20 in state trails. 60 people, not vehicles. on federal. this whole deal pisses me off!!! the biggest thing is they are spying on us in a 4x4 orianted forum. no freedom or rights anymore i guess...............
jack is not cool. I know him and hate him so bad i wish he would get eaten by giant pubie crabs. he wheels his little homo rides all over the place where he is not supposed to be, then complains about people driving by his store on the road. i wish bad things on him.

Last edited by steveo; September 21st, 2007 at 05:15 PM.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:16 PM   #46
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i am sure i will ruffle some feathers with this next statement. i believe in what great lakes and people like pat are doing is a great thing. but here is my opinion and what i have seen first hand......you mean well but taking a dnr officer and park ranger through all the trails and showing them all these areas is not always a good thing.yes i am sure things will be seen but making them aware and pointing things out has really seemed to hurt areas like this one in general. i truely feel that when it comes down to making the off road guys happy or creating revanue wich in case makes them keep there job, what do you think they will choose....there job.. it all comes down to money..they have closed many of the trails around here for a cross country ski trail...how many skiers did i see last year? 2....how much money did they spend? this is why snowmobilers are so strong is because towns live on them in the winter and the state needsw this...ok i am done i can go on all day...
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:38 PM   #47
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This is almost as bad as the tazer thread. My 2cents after reading the original thread.

From reading the first bunch of posts, most people would think this was an organized trail ride, with marked trails and a game of some kind and a cost of $10. Only later in the thread does it get cleared up that the $10 is for camping and the trail ride part is free. So it is understandable for someone to think this an organized event with an entry fee.

Seems to me the ranger was trying to give you guys a heads up in a round about way. If the ranger has sinister motives, as a lot of you seem to think he does, why would he have posted at all? Why not remain silent and just let you do this thing and then bust everybody at the trail head?

And you guys wonder why he doesn't respond? After the way you guys have slammed him, I can certainly understand why he would not want to post anything at all on these forums. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Seems too many people on the net jump to conclusions before knowing the facts of the situation.

Regardless, why are we alienating the very people we need on our side to save our wheeling rights? Even if the rangerís motives were to set you guys up (which I donít believe to be the case), what possible good can come out of e-thugging him over his posts? Time to grow up people.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 05:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Brods View Post
This is almost as bad as the tazer thread. My 2cents after reading the original thread.

From reading the first bunch of posts, most people would think this was an organized trail ride, with marked trails and a game of some kind and a cost of $10. Only later in the thread does it get cleared up that the $10 is for camping and the trail ride part is free. So it is understandable for someone to think this an organized event with an entry fee.

Seems to me the ranger was trying to give you guys a heads up in a round about way. If the ranger has sinister motives, as a lot of you seem to think he does, why would he have posted at all? Why not remain silent and just let you do this thing and then bust everybody at the trail head?

And you guys wonder why he doesn't respond? After the way you guys have slammed him, I can certainly understand why he would not want to post anything at all on these forums. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Seems too many people on the net jump to conclusions before knowing the facts of the situation.

Regardless, why are we alienating the very people we need on our side to save our wheeling rights? Even if the rangerís motives were to set you guys up (which I donít believe to be the case), what possible good can come out of e-thugging him over his posts? Time to grow up people.
Another member of the sleeper cell emerges. the ranger has been fishing in the thread with his little questions. its not his motives, its his actions. if you have something to say, stand up and say it dammit. dont hide in the crowd.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:17 PM   #49
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, what possible good can come out of e-thugging him over his posts? Time to grow up people.
Sorry guys, but I agree with Brods...The board has a lot of folks with big attitudes and e-penis'...Speak up about a subject and you run the risk of having your family heritege called into question, etc. At times there is no profit in commenting.
If more of the great folks on this board were more civilized in dealing with each other this would be a much more productive environment....
Let the flaming begin:stan3:
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:24 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Bottom line, you will need the permit. I'm surprised at the number being 75 since the DNR listing is 20 people. I'm not gonna dig for it on my computer but trust me, I can produce it.
Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

R 299.921 Definitions....
...(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated,
scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:29 PM   #51
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Sorry guys, but I agree with Brods...The board has a lot of folks with big attitudes and e-penis'...Speak up about a subject and you run the risk of having your family heritege called into question, etc. At times there is no profit in commenting.
If more of the great folks on this board were more civilized in dealing with each other this would be a much more productive environment....
Let the flaming begin:stan3:
Well said .
That was kinda my point a week or so ago just got out of hand .
It can be hard to express your self with writein words.(at least for me )
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:36 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
Section 504 of 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.504 -

R 299.921 Definitions....
...(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated,
scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.
There ya go.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Brods View Post

And you guys wonder why he doesn't respond? After the way you guys have slammed him, I can certainly understand why he would not want to post anything at all on these forums. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Seems too many people on the net jump to conclusions before knowing the facts of the situation.

.

I 100% disagree. What this forum needs is the voice of the law. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not, we need to know what they are. If we don't agree with it, then we submit our ideas for the laws to be changed.

And I'm sorry, but I don't see where anybody slammed him anywhere. It seems like people are having a conversation.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:50 PM   #54
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all in black and white rite there.....just my 2 cents.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:50 PM   #55
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check his IP, he might be part of the sleeper cell.
Steveo, I'm not a ranger. After re-reading my post, I realized that I worded a few statements wrong. Either way, I'm just tired of having to worry about whether or not a two-track or dirt road or whatever is legal or not.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:54 PM   #56
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Steveo, I'm not a ranger. After re-reading my post, I realized that I worded a few statements wrong. Either way, I'm just tired of having to worry about whether or not a two-track or dirt road or whatever is legal or not.
Sorry, he has been annoying me on a very high level lately. He won't be back until monday..

I don't care what people do here, but this forum, and the marketplace are going to still be moderated.


I agree with your issues about two track legalities, and that is why I wish we could establish communications with on of the officers.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 06:58 PM   #57
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I 100% disagree. What this forum needs is the voice of the law. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not, we need to know what they are. If we don't agree with it, then we submit our ideas for the laws to be changed.
Uh.... I never expected Kelly to be the voice of reason.. But he's absolutely right. Instead of getting pissed off about it any further [I was cussing up a storm reading this thread, which doesn't even impact or concern me] I went online and I looked up the laws. They're out there for us to read, and the first rule of law is that 'ignorance is not a basis for defense'.

You mean that out of all the self proclaimed geniuses on this site we don't have ANYONE that's at least pre-law? I, for one, would welcome someone, ANYONE from the DNR or USFS to identify themselves and HELP get the laws sorted out WITH us. There's a song out there somewhere...goes something like..."I fought the law, and the law...." something or other.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:03 PM   #58
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I went online and I looked up the laws. They're out there for us to read, and the first rule of law is that 'ignorance is not a basis for defense'.
.
x2...

And after seeing the law, I have to give props to the ranger for "pre-warning" liv2mx about the legal issues involved with his ride. It would be a grouping of over 20 people. So instead of them all getting tickets, they can pull the permit and have it legal. I'm guessing the permits would be cheaper then 20 tickets...

Its the law, so be it.

I just wish that the "District Ranger" posted the law for everybody to see, instead of making a pseudo account and acting as if he was interested in the trail ride.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:08 PM   #59
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I've been waiting & waiting for some wheeling lawyer to come forward & let us run their interns into the ground doing "goodwill" research for GLFWDA.

As might have been noted somewhere above the discrepancy in numbers 75 vs. 20 is the difference between the USFS & MiDNR.
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Old September 21st, 2007, 07:09 PM   #60
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Its funny that just a week or so ago someone said the DNR doesn't have time to snoop through forums and such. I hate to bring this up again, but its a little late.
as for the harrasment for the planned ride. I would suggest you email all your info and this thread to the Attorney General Mike Cox. if he knew this was going to be a huge ticket fest he might be inclined to show up and take one for the team. I bet some DNR guys would be eatting crow if they tried that shit on HIM.
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