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Old August 15th, 2007, 06:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
mikesova, you said:


Because that's how it works. It's all about free will and choice. We have covered this several hundred times and you always ask the same stupid question. Get over it.

not a very good answer. Humans have spouted all kind of bullshit, how do you selectively decide to believe this one? great, you have faith in this story...good for this story, it has gone through the natural selection of religions and evolved into what you see today. can't get over it. If there is a god, and I hope there is, I don't think he/she will punish me for not simply believing this story manifested by humans. He/she will be proud of me for using my brain and not just believing what religious nuts are telling me, because there are way to many of them in many different religions to sort out.
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Old August 15th, 2007, 10:19 AM   #142
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See, there is your problem. You think that ANYONE that believes in God is a "religious nut". I agree there have been nuts out there, like David Koresh, but simply believing in God doesn't make someone a nut.

I also don't believe that the Bible is "spouted bullshit", "a good story" "manifested by humans". I believe that it is the word of God and is a historical document from our past.

God will not be proud of you for rejecting him or calling his word bullshit. You need proof, archeology is proving the stories in the Bible all the time. They are now on a dig that seems to confirm the exodus from Egypt...one of the bigger sticking points offered up by non-believers like yourself.

You will hurt yourself if you jump off the Mackinaw bridge.
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Old August 18th, 2007, 09:19 PM   #143
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I went back to the original article and found this quote...

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Their fossil records date back more than 360 million years and suggest that the fish has changed little over that period.
Slight changes in the environment intern cause selective breeding, which causes organisms to change over time.

The word that we use for that is evolution.

Now lets talk about the fish…

For starters I do not believe that anybody is saying that ZERO evolution has occurred. This article did not say ZERO evolution.

Nobody in the scientific community that I know of also states that evolution always must take place at predictable rate... A.K.A. Things may be at reasonable steady state for a long time then a change is made in the environment that tips the balance and they we may find a time of "faster" evolution.

If things in the environment do not change there is no need for evolution and things do not have to evolve. “In other words” there are times of rapid evolution and times where things look pretty static for a long time… Even 360 Million years.


It is then entirely possible that if the location where this fish is living changed very little in 360 million years that the fish could change very little in 360 million years.


Take something like Bacteria. At first Antibiotics worked great.... Kills like 99.99 percent of them... But not all of them... When you take those that are resistant to the antibiotic and allow them to multiply you get a slightly different organism that looks like the first, acts like the first but is not killed by the antibiotic. This is evolution, small but it is evolution... Things changing over time.

It is even possible that the introduction of the Antibiotic caused the mutation of the DNA that allowed some bacteria to become resistant to the antibiotic.

Selective breeding of things from corn crops to dogs has caused them to change over time. This is evidence of evolution and the environmental selection for a specific trait will cause it. It can happen in nature and man can do it.


Here is the cliff notes…. Evolution is real…. It is the word that we use to say that organisms change over time. And that is all that it means... It does not say that man came from apes... It does say that it might have happened but does not guarantee it.
The fact that there is no fossil of the missing link does not mean that one does not exist… It just means that we do not know where it is or where to look…For all that we know it could be buried in the Vatican basement or some Government warehouse like the Ark of the Covenant from the Indian Jones movie. Or it could be at the bottom of some river in Africa and will be found next week.

Understanding evolution has not gotten in my way of believing in God… I know that God laid out the rules of the Universe and set them in motion. From the orbits of the planets to the way electricity flows, God set the rules and laws of the Universe and has been watching it for a very long time. Very much in they way a clock maker makes all of the gears, springs and lever arms, puts them together, gives it a twist and watches it run giving it an extra twist or bump as needed.


Jeff
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Old August 19th, 2007, 01:27 PM   #144
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Jeff, if what you are saying is true, then it is impossible for the ceolocanth to be a transitional species. Further, it has been found at numberous different locations, not just one select area. Even further, if it lived that long, then it has survived through all different climate changes, which means that its food sources also changed, and all that. Yet, it remains unchanged for that whole length of time. Doen't that make you wonder if it is TRUELY that old of a fish?
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Old August 20th, 2007, 10:06 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
Jeff, if what you are saying is true, then it is impossible for the ceolocanth to be a transitional species. Further, it has been found at numberous different locations, not just one select area. Even further, if it lived that long, then it has survived through all different climate changes, which means that its food sources also changed, and all that. Yet, it remains unchanged for that whole length of time. Doen't that make you wonder if it is TRUELY that old of a fish?


Dave,

As a computer programmer I have not yet studied the fish in detail to the level that others have. For that reason I must use Google and the word Coelacanth to get information…

I know… just because you read or see something on the does Internet does not makes it true…

Now, by transitional species you mean one that is about half way between fish and 4-limbed creatures called Terapods. The 30 minutes of or so of time with Goggle and the word Coelacanth would suggest that both the Coelacanth and the lungfish are highly specialized forms of fish with lobe fins…

While at first look the lobe fins could be mistaken as limbs but recent research is casting doubt on that. It is the highly specialized nature of the lobe fin make it look like a limb but it may not be a true limb.

Actually from what I have found is that Coelacanth is actually a group of about 125 species of fossil fish named for the hollow spine they have. Not for the 4-leged fish. The fact that there are 125 species of fossil Coelacanth means that it has changed over time.


So far I not seen any evidence that the fish that we are now finding in the deep ocean is one of the 125 species that we have fossil records of. Similar but not the same… Not because of the shape of the fins but the hollow spine they have. The living species of the fish have not been around for 360 Million years.


In actuality it is 2 species of Coelacanth, one off the African coast and another off the coast of Indoniea. Living in isolated environments has allowed them to evolve to separate species. This is why they are in several locations. They are different species of fish. Again, they are similar but not the same species when examined up close.

The fact that these are difference species of Coelacanth I offer as further evidence of evolution. Living in different areas of the world has selected them to become different species.


I currently believe that much of the “noise” about the Coelacanth is due to over exuberance of those that first found the living species who were too quick to look at the lobe fins and said “look the missing link between fish and terapods” and not the slow deliberate study that should have been done by those truly qualified to do the study.


I believe that extra-ordinary claims need extra-ordinary proof. The more exuberantly the claims are made the closer we need to look at the facts of the claim.


Here some of the articles that I found on the fish

The first one is kind of fishy. (pun intended)
http://www.dinofish.com/


I like this one… but in all honesty I am an NPR-PBS fan and watch Nova on a pretty regular basis.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/fish/


I am unsure about this one…. It looks legit, seams to have good info but has the look and feel of a tabloid. I kept expecting to have the latest celeb baby photos or something to pop up the banner adds.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0731152131.htm


Thanks for the good debate.

Jeff
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Old August 20th, 2007, 10:23 AM   #146
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"Recent research is casting doubts on the lobe fins being actual fins" Now is this because of the fact that they are caught alive? Here is my problem, the assumption was made and concluded on whether or not the data was accurate. Since scientists WANT that to be a weight bearing fin, they make that conclusion whether or not it should be that way, and don't back down even when reality stares them in the face. This is the dishonesty that upsets me. Science should be without an agenda.

I have not chased the different locations thing very far, but if they are separate species, then they do they have the same name? And why does everyone keep saying it has changed little to none if it is two different species? Do you consider a siberian husky and a german shephard to be different species? Or do you consider them both to be dogs?

Thanks for contributing Jeff!
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Old August 20th, 2007, 12:11 PM   #147
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Those that wanted the lobe fins to be weight bearing were interpreting the evidence available in the 1938. Many jumped on the bandwagon and they became known as weight-bearing fins. With all of the evidence that was known in 1938 there was nothing that disputed weigh-bearing fins. If there was evidence it was not take seriously or more likly not understood until much later.

Now in 2007 when we have many more tools available to us we can now see that they might not be weight-bearing fins.... Not that there was an conspiracy agenda in 1938. Although I suspect there was an agenda in 1938.

The agenda that I see was a chase for fame... Be the first person to find the missing link between fish and Terapods... Going down in scientific history as the person to make an important discovery was the agenda. It is human weakness that caused them to pursue that.

You are correct Science should not have an agenda. Not for money, fame or any agenda. However, science is practiced by humans that can fall to the temptation of fame, and money.

Now for the dog question: Strictly speaking the Siberian Husky and German Shepard are not different species.... If 2 animals can mate and their offspring are fertile they are the same species. However, with a few thousand more years of Man making mating choices for these breeds I believe they will become separate species. It is odd but Man is not making these choices based on what is best for the dogs.


Case in Point. The horse and donkey. Separate species but similar enough that they can breed and produce offspring... The mule...however almost always sterile. (60 documented cases since 1525 wikipedia) Mules cannot breed themselves because the genes are mixed up too radically to produce offspring.


Horses and donkeys are where the Huskys and Shepards are headed unless they are bred back together to correct genetic problems that inbreeding has caused. Many of the pure breed dogs have genetic problems caused by Man making the breading choices over nature making them.

In a few hundred generations I believe it will happen. Huskies and Shepards will have sterile offspring and then if Man is still making the breeding choices finally they will not be able to mate and they will have truly become separate species. I am sure they will still be fury and four legged but separate species.



Must now return to real work.

Thanks

Jeff
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Old August 20th, 2007, 01:22 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
then they do they have the same name?

I missed this part... I suspect they are given the same name by the mass media for mass consumption...I suspect that if we go to the brainiac fish guy journals (bfgj monthly) we will find something different.

Kind of like Wolves = canis lupus and Dogs = canis familiaris Both are Canis but are not the same.

For us it is a crime to say CJ=YJ=TJ but for 99% of the people out there they are all JEEPS and zero differances over time. Both short, both removable tops and doors, both four wheel drive. Changed very little since 1955.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #149
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have you ever seen those two fish try to mate and observe the results? My point is that nobody can make the claim that they are separate species because nobody knows. If we do not have proof of them being separate, then lets not make the assumptive close, as it was done back in '38

anyways, thanks again for contributing, I enjoyed conversing with ya (cant say the same for a few select others, lol)
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:23 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
anyways, thanks again for contributing, I enjoyed conversing with ya (cant say the same for a few select others, lol)

I know so few here are civil and constructivly can add to a conversation.

Have a good day.... I will keep an eye out for any dogs or fish doing it Coelacanth Style.


Jeff
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:33 PM   #151
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you two need to get a room ; ) lol lk thanks for the afternoon break from "real" computer work.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:34 PM   #152
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I think two celocanths going at it would make me hot, so I won't watch.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:39 PM   #153
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth#Fossil_record


The African and the Indoneasian Coelacath are differnat species. I know that wikipedia can have issues because anybody can edit it so I am looking for more info.

The cliff notes say that DNA testing shows them geneticly different.


Still looking for second source on that wiki entry.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:44 PM   #154
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Forget I Said This.

Last edited by guest; August 20th, 2007 at 08:55 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 02:59 PM   #155
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ok now im not racist but this kinda makes since and no one take this the wrong way. I also have a lot of african american friends. But it kinda makes since that african americans came from evoulution. This makes since cause they kinda look more it and act more it. they tend to talk louder and scream more. Not being racist. the lips, african americans have big lips. so do apes. what does it matter though most believe god created everything. includeing apes. so we white came from god. and black came from momkeys. it just makes more since. please keep in mind I am NOT trying to affend anyone and im not racist. you may not like what i said but you know it kinda makes since.
Wow...I can't believe how the public school systems are failing us.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 03:09 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
I think two celocanths going at it would make me hot, so I won't watch.
They are differant than most fish because they give birth to live young... unlike most fish that mate without touching each other...So they have thier own style.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 03:17 PM   #157
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Wow...I can't believe how the public school systems are failing us.
the public school tried to teach me different. but i believe what makes since.sorry if it affends you.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 03:18 PM   #158
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ok now im not racist but this kinda makes since and no one take this the wrong way. I also have a lot of african american friends. But it kinda makes since that african americans came from evoulution. This makes since cause they kinda look more it and act more it. they tend to talk louder and scream more. Not being racist. the lips, african americans have big lips. so do apes. what does it matter though most believe god created everything. includeing apes. so we white came from god. and black came from momkeys. it just makes more since. please keep in mind I am NOT trying to affend anyone and im not racist. you may not like what i said but you know it kinda makes since.
You said the same stupid shit a few months ago.

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ok this aint racist or nothin but to me black people came from Evoulution and White people came from Creationism. But I still like some black people so don't think im racist just because I think that. It just makes more sense that way I guess.

The fact that you typed this shit then, and again now, only proves that you are a fucking idiot with no capacity to learn.
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Old August 20th, 2007, 03:19 PM   #159
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the public school tried to teach me different. but i believe what makes since.sorry if it affends you.
So your public school tried to teach you to be less ignorant, but you chose your own moronic common "since"?
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Old August 20th, 2007, 03:36 PM   #160
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WOW.

A.J Go back to school. The system failed you. Demand a retry.
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