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Old July 29th, 2007, 11:26 AM   #1
motrctyman
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Default K-12 schools feel squeezed by state budget uncertainty

By TIM MARTIN Associated Press Writer

LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- Continuing financial difficulty at many of Michigan's public schools are magnified this summer because of uncertainty about the state government budget for next fiscal year.

Some Michigan school districts are laying off teachers or not hiring replacements for those who retire.

More Michigan districts are turning to private fundraisers and fees to help pay for sports programs, marching bands and field trips.

Do a search for the rest.

What gets me is watching Gary Peters (), Lottery Commissioner, making tv commercials saying "Gamble more, 100% profit goes to the schools!":miff:
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Old July 29th, 2007, 11:43 AM   #2
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In my school alone last year we had 3 retire, and not replaced. The director of the career center is now a contracted out position, meaning they hire him from an outside company.

Class sizes are getting bigger, money is getting smaller, requirements are getting bigger....when are the people in this state going to realize that education is important?
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Old July 30th, 2007, 08:12 AM   #3
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More evidence that the government can't manage anything as well as the private sector. People need to realize that a free market would benefit education. Take education out of the hands of government.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 08:55 AM   #4
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this is also a reason why we shouldnt put healthcare in the governments hand's. but i digress
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Old July 30th, 2007, 10:00 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
More evidence that the government can't manage anything as well as the private sector. People need to realize that a free market would benefit education. Take education out of the hands of government.

Thats already been done...ever hear of a private school?
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Old July 30th, 2007, 10:07 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
More evidence that the government can't manage anything as well as the private sector. People need to realize that a free market would benefit education. Take education out of the hands of government.
Is that why charter schools have done well to educate the youth? It didn't work there.

The state has a vested interest in the well-being/development of their citizens.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 10:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
More evidence that the government can't manage anything as well as the private sector. People need to realize that a free market would benefit education. Take education out of the hands of government.


The state doesn't "manage" the schools, they only fund them. We have already seen what "for profit" schooling has done for education and I don't think we want to make that the norm.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 12:53 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Mike Hancho View Post
Thats already been done...ever hear of a private school?
Can you take the money that you pay in taxes for education and spend it anywhere you like?

NO.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 01:21 PM   #9
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The state doesn't "manage" the schools, they only fund them. We have already seen what "for profit" schooling has done for education and I don't think we want to make that the norm.
I disagree. Profit forces innovation and competition to create better products (in this case education) or face being eliminated by the other companies(schools). Socialist based schools like todays government run schools have no such motivation for constant improvement.

In the current system the school gets x amount of dollars. If they piss it all away, they still get the same (relatively) amount next year.

In a private business if you piss away all your money, next year you go bankrupt and a new, more efficient, business comes in and takes all your customers. Or, if you do manage to stay afloat, you will still lose customers because they can take their money down the street to another school that did a better job. That is not possible today.

Its basic free market economics, it works better for everything to which it has ever been applied, and it will work for education too.

Our school system is based on socialist ideals and it is not as efficient as a free market. There are many real world examples of this, it's ALWAYS better to have competiton.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 03:08 PM   #10
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It has been tried in education and it doesn't work.

Quote:
schools have no such motivation for constant improvement
They don't? You must not know much about schools or the people in them. They are constantly trying to be better, learn new things, and improve their programs.

Quote:
In the current system the school gets x amount of dollars. If they piss it all away, they still get the same (relatively) amount next year.
Incorrect. There is a thing called school of choice. You can pick ANY public school you want to go to and if they have room, you can go there. If schools lose students, they lose money. The money that comes into a school is based off a per student amount. If there are less students, you get less money. A public school can still go bankrupt and not have any students and have to close your doors. It can, and HAS happened here in Michigan.

Don't even get me started on the failure of the charter schools...."let's not get the most qualified teachers, let's get the cheapest." Yea, that'll work.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 03:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
It has been tried in education and it doesn't work.



They don't? You must not know much about schools or the people in them. They are constantly trying to be better, learn new things, and improve their programs.



Incorrect. There is a thing called school of choice. You can pick ANY public school you want to go to and if they have room, you can go there. If schools lose students, they lose money. The money that comes into a school is based off a per student amount. If there are less students, you get less money. A public school can still go bankrupt and not have any students and have to close your doors. It can, and HAS happened here in Michigan.

Don't even get me started on the failure of the charter schools...."let's not get the most qualified teachers, let's get the cheapest." Yea, that'll work.
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Old July 30th, 2007, 04:59 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
In the current system the school gets x amount of dollars. If they piss it all away, they still get the same (relatively) amount next year.
last time i checked schools also were compensated based off their meap test scores, the better your students do, the more money per student you get. correct me if i'm wrong but don't they also get more per student if they are a larger school?

education is the most valuable resource this state has. we need to spend more on education, not cut costs.

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Old July 30th, 2007, 05:38 PM   #13
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It's not really more if you are a larger school. It is based off the tax bracket you are in and how many businesses there are in your district.
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Old July 31st, 2007, 12:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
Don't even get me started on the failure of the charter schools...."let's not get the most qualified teachers, let's get the cheapest." Yea, that'll work.
It's ok spill, what do you know? From where did you hear it?

Here are the local charter school stats in my town.....

http://hollyacademy.org/

HOLLY ACADEMY

#1 MEAP SCORES IN GENESEE COUNTY 2006

#6 MEAP SCORES IN OAKLAND COUNTY 2006

RANKED IN THE TOP 3% OF ALL CHARTER SCHOOLS IN MICHIGAN

.....Sounds sucessful to me.
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Old July 31st, 2007, 01:08 PM   #15
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Now that's funny. Yea, test a small fraction of the total school population, kick out anyone that falls below your desired range, and hand pick your students....oh, your son is a special needs student? Oh well then maybe the public school is a better choice for you.

Charter schools are free from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools. With the notable exceptions of very small schools, the charter high schools had lower scores, especially the for-profit schools owned by the Leona Group.
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Old July 31st, 2007, 01:24 PM   #16
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Double

640 students? Are you kidding me?

No budget for transportation...so the school doesn't have to worry about that cost.

Let's look at some other numbers here for your Holly school. 04/05 MEAP

4th grade, only 45% of the students met or exceeded Michigan Standards in writing. That is below state average.

7th grade, only 53% of the students met or exceeded Michigan Standards in writing. That is average.

A quote from the Annual Report: "Ethnicity, economically disadvantaged and other disaggregated data: Holly Academy either does not reflect a culture for the 10 subgroups, or less than 10 students per group were tested due to low student population in these subsets in each grade."

Apples = = Pretzels

This all white school also only goes to 8th grade.

Last edited by Buggy_Tim; July 31st, 2007 at 01:35 PM.
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Old August 1st, 2007, 01:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
Double

640 students? Are you kidding me?

No budget for transportation...so the school doesn't have to worry about that cost.

Let's look at some other numbers here for your Holly school. 04/05 MEAP

4th grade, only 45% of the students met or exceeded Michigan Standards in writing. That is below state average.

7th grade, only 53% of the students met or exceeded Michigan Standards in writing. That is average.

A quote from the Annual Report: "Ethnicity, economically disadvantaged and other disaggregated data: Holly Academy either does not reflect a culture for the 10 subgroups, or less than 10 students per group were tested due to low student population in these subsets in each grade."

Apples = = Pretzels

This all white school also only goes to 8th grade.
So education before 9th grade doesn't matter?

Nice cherry picking.

Why don't you post all the numbers instead of just the two that fit your model of a failing charter school?

45% is 1% below the state average. The rest are equal or exceed the state average. here is the whole story.....

4th Grade: 7th grade 5th grade 8th grade

Reading 87% 84
state 79% 73

Writing 45% 53
state 46% 53

ELA 74% 76
state 69% 67

Math 89% 92
state 73% 62

Science 95 78
state 79 64

Social Studies 66 45
state 26 30

It's funny that you left out the 05/06 numbers as they were much better than the 04/05 numbers.

The demographic analysis was seperate from the numbers you quoted.. Maybe you should read all of the document.

Also there are 8 special needs teachers for a population of 640, that doesn't sound like they are excluding special needs children to me.
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Old August 1st, 2007, 11:34 PM   #18
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05/06 annual report listed the 04/05 test results.

Demographics is not separate. It is what it is, in the same annual report. Maybe YOU should read it. It's on page 5.

It's a well known fact that charters label more children "special needs" than are actually special needs in order to get additional title 1 funds and the practice is more rampant in the SE corner of the state where 95% of the funding is swallowed up.

they better be able to do something with a 5 million dollar budget and only 640 students.

Either way, I would rather have my money go all to the school than to have a portion of it go to the school and as much as could be saved go into some ones bank account.

Have you looked at the staffing budget and how many teachers there are? Do you think they are getting the best for that kind of money?
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 11:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post


Now that's funny. Yea, test a small fraction of the total school population, kick out anyone that falls below your desired range, and hand pick your students....oh, your son is a special needs student? Oh well then maybe the public school is a better choice for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws View Post
It's a well known fact that charters label more children "special needs" than are actually special needs in order to get additional title 1 funds and the practice is more rampant in the SE corner of the state where 95% of the funding is swallowed up.
Which is it, no special needs or too many? Your arguments have a truly dizzying effect.

All this talk about charter schools and special needs is far from the point I originally was making.

To get back to that point: the private sector will always do a job better than the government will. I'm not sure charter schools even qualify as a private sector company since, in the case of Holly Academy; they are run by CMU, a state run school.

Education needs to be run like a business. It seems that profit making is what scares you about this. Profit is part of business, yes. A company making a profit will still have better results and be more efficient financially and otherwise, than its government run counterpart. This has been proven over and over again.

It a simple argument based on basic economic principle:

The allocation of scarce resources that have alternate uses.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 08:45 PM   #20
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Which is it, no special needs or too many? Your arguments have a truly dizzying effect.

All this talk about charter schools and special needs is far from the point I originally was making.

To get back to that point: the private sector will always do a job better than the government will. I'm not sure charter schools even qualify as a private sector company since, in the case of Holly Academy; they are run by CMU, a state run school.

Education needs to be run like a business. It seems that profit making is what scares you about this. Profit is part of business, yes. A company making a profit will still have better results and be more efficient financially and otherwise, than its government run counterpart. This has been proven over and over again.

It a simple argument based on basic economic principle:

The allocation of scarce resources that have alternate uses.
You don't really seem to know what you are talking about. Charter schools in
Michigan have to be "chartered" or sponsored. They can be chartered or created by a university (with CMU doing the vast majority of them), or they can be created by a local school district (somewhat rare.) They are not operated by the university that charters them, but are by the local school district if they charter them. All that it means is that the university kind of oversees their curriculum, and basically gives them a sort of accredidation so they seem legit. They are usually then run by an outside, for-profit, firm. Their are several huge ones in the U.S. They can also be run independently.

Many charters are also only at the elementary level. Why is that you might ask? Because it is cheaper to educate elementary aged kids because they don't require as much technology, counseling, extra-curriculars, administrative support, to educate as high school aged kids do. Is it then fair to compare how kids do at said charter school to the kids at the local public school that must allocate their scarce resources amongst all grades and needs?

The problem I have with your argument about running education like a business is how do you determine if they are being successful? Are they successful if they turn a profit? If so they will not accept any students that might require more money to educate (spec-ed,etc). They won't provide extra-curricular activities that add to the educational experience(music,sports,etc.). They will hire the least qualified (oftentimes uncertified, or fresh out of college) people to work there so that they can pay them less. All so they can turn a profit.

Do you determine success by MME (Michigan Merit Exam...has replaced MEAP) scores? If so, again you have to look at what students they accept? Are they able to deny acceptance to any students? Who do you think they will deny...anyone that can't do well on the test. Will they provide a good well-rounded education or will they simply teach to the test?

Last edited by 94YJ; August 2nd, 2007 at 09:00 PM.
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