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Old June 30th, 2007, 10:16 PM   #21
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I honestly think that the law was too inclusive. It included fetusesthat were dead and had no hope. I do think that the woman in the article made the choice to have an abortion because she didnt want a handicapped baby. In the article she says she never even named it while others did. I dont have any sympathy for her.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 01:27 PM   #22
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Well, seeing what has already been done with the legality of abortions, I would be hesistant to allow a PBA of a child that is dead, because soon enough it will be allowed to happen for defects too. It is not the end of the world for a woman to have a still birth. The fact that she lost her baby is the tough part, not the method of its arrival. Things are fine the way they are, as long as the don't try to pass that insane "inclusion" for stressed out pregnant women.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 10:01 AM   #23
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Well, seeing what has already been done with the legality of abortions, I would be hesistant to allow a PBA of a child that is dead, because soon enough it will be allowed to happen for defects too. It is not the end of the world for a woman to have a still birth. The fact that she lost her baby is the tough part, not the method of its arrival. Things are fine the way they are, as long as the don't try to pass that insane "inclusion" for stressed out pregnant women.
I keep saying this but you keep not getting it. She couldnt be induced for over a month! There is a defined distinction between a baby that is dead and one that is alive. You cant kill something that is dead. Laws can be written to include and exclude conditions. I cant even think of a law that is 100% inclusive.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 10:11 AM   #24
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I keep saying this but you keep not getting it. She couldnt be induced for over a month! There is a defined distinction between a baby that is dead and one that is alive. You cant kill something that is dead. Laws can be written to include and exclude conditions. I cant even think of a law that is 100% inclusive.
I understand what you are saying, but here is an unanswered question: Why would they not have induced labor isntead of the ole yank feet and vacuum brains? They induce labor at early stages of pregnancy when the babie's life is at risk and needs to be delivered before it dies, and I see no reason why the cannot induce when the child is deceased. I could of course as my Mom, as she is a nurse for high risk pregnancies, she knows all that stuff.

Point being this: I don't see why a PBA is necessary in any circumstance, I see no need for exceptions (well, not yet at least!)
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 11:39 AM   #25
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Even if our baby had a remote chance of surviving, it was not a life that we would choose for our child.
It is not the parents choice for the life chosen for a child. It is a life provided by God and later the choice of the child whether to follow the life set forth in motion by the Lord above or go astray.

In my eyes ending a life just so you dont have to deal with the problems is selfish. This is whether it be abortion, suicide(including assisted), or murder.

Just my $.02
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 12:45 PM   #26
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I understand what you are saying, but here is an unanswered question: Why would they not have induced labor isntead of the ole yank feet and vacuum brains? They induce labor at early stages of pregnancy when the babie's life is at risk and needs to be delivered before it dies, and I see no reason why the cannot induce when the child is deceased. I could of course as my Mom, as she is a nurse for high risk pregnancies, she knows all that stuff.

Point being this: I don't see why a PBA is necessary in any circumstance, I see no need for exceptions (well, not yet at least!)
I am not a doctor so I cant answer your question. There was a medical reason that they couldn't induce labor. I am not sure what it was, but I talked to her many times and if she could have had the baby out via labor or PBA she would have done it a lot sooner.
The good news is, two years later she is pregnant again.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 12:51 PM   #27
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I am not a doctor so I cant answer your question. There was a medical reason that they couldn't induce labor. I am not sure what it was, but I talked to her many times and if she could have had the baby out via labor or PBA she would have done it a lot sooner.
The good news is, two years later she is pregnant again.
Well, that information would be needed to agree or disagree, but for now lets agree :)

I am glad she is pregnant again, I pray her child is well!

Do you know what I mean when I say that as soon as we open the door for PBA to be ok, it will then have a foot shoved in said door until its busted wide open? In other words, as soon as there are some acceptable ways, it is a matter of time until they discover more, then they just allow it for "mental health" reasons like it was attempted in April of this year. If we don't allow anything, it is a much better barrier to the protection of life.
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 04:16 PM   #28
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yeah, they should be allowed to chose!
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Old July 2nd, 2007, 04:43 PM   #29
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yeah, they should be allowed to chose!
What a well thought out and displayed argument, thanks for the contribution NEWB!
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Old July 4th, 2007, 09:46 PM   #30
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Here's the real deal folks.....................babies that can't contribute to the whole need to be buried before they are born, after they are born, what ever......Not to piss anyone off but thats the way humans did it for thousands of years.

Now if anyone of you are a woman and are pregnate, then I think you can have say in this. I am not a woman and I have not experienced a parisite growing in me. So how could I say what is right about someting I could never know about.

But I do know all about a child that is fucked up. My grandson was born with Cerebal Palsy..severly...he suffers from a paralized throat and cant swallow. He is fed thru a tube in his belly...forever..... His arms fail around like rubberbands on crack..and he spits every 20 seconds...about 3-5 times a day he chokes on his own spit.....Chance are he will drown in his own vomit before he is 5 years old.....

The PAIN my daughter deals with EVERYDAY is very very serious. HER pain is what matters to me. Not the life of a flipper armed spit maker. Oh yes there is a boy inside there...until we find him dead in his sleep.

You have no idea what kinda pain a "troubled fetius" can cause a woman or her family. Had the choice been offered to this family if we knew in advance the suffering we all would endure...let alone my grandson.

We would have aborted for sure.............or in the olden days I woulda taken him outback and whacked him with a shovel
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Old July 4th, 2007, 11:32 PM   #31
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I have allergies, which means something didnt go right when i was a fetus, does that mean i should have been aborted because it causes me suffering.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 11:44 PM   #32
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I have allergies, which means something didnt go right when i was a fetus, does that mean i should have been aborted because it causes me suffering.
Yes, cuz allergies and cerebral palsy are right in the same ballpark.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 11:49 PM   #33
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Yes, cuz allergies and cerebral palsy are right in the same ballpark.
i was kidding.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 11:50 PM   #34
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i was kidding.
Go choke on a Claritin.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 11:57 PM   #35
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Go choke on a Claritin.
I dont take claritin anymore, its too exspensive. Im on zyrtec now. :P
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:37 AM   #36
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1. Now if anyone of you are a woman and are pregnate, then I think you can have say in this. I am not a woman and I have not experienced a parisite growing in me. So how could I say what is right about someting I could never know about.

2. But I do know all about a child that is fucked up. My grandson was born with Cerebal Palsy..severly...he suffers from a paralized throat and cant swallow. He is fed thru a tube in his belly...forever..... His arms fail around like rubberbands on crack..and he spits every 20 seconds...about 3-5 times a day he chokes on his own spit.....Chance are he will drown in his own vomit before he is 5 years old.....

3. The PAIN my daughter deals with EVERYDAY is very very serious. HER pain is what matters to me. Not the life of a flipper armed spit maker. Oh yes there is a boy inside there...until we find him dead in his sleep. You have no idea what kinda pain a "troubled fetius" can cause a woman or her family. Had the choice been offered to this family if we knew in advance the suffering we all would endure...let alone my grandson.
1. Have you ever been murdered? Should you not have a say in how a murderer is treated ONLY based on the grounds that you were never killed? You are wrong here.

2. I know several people with special needs too. They situations are not quite as extreme as your hated grandson. I have a buddy I mentor who is retarded. Great kid, he is slow, different from all other kids. This does not make him an underserving person to have life. If you are unable to learn anything from the life of your grandchild beyond killing him, then maybe you are the weak one who should have been offed.

3. Here is the problem with your argument: You CANNOT know fully the challenges you will face with a special needs child. I know a grown man with the same ailement, but he can actually walk. Albeit very slowly and very akward, but he gets around. He cannot speak very well at all, everything is slow, everything is slurred, and he drools all over the place. But what is neat about Eric is that his mind is 100%. If you just wait for him to speak, he is just as much there as anyone else. So how exactly are you to know ahead of time what the outcome will be with a special needs child?
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Old July 5th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #37
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It's seems your one of thoose posters who takes everything personal and with a bucket of salt.........too bad for you friend

Please never make the mistake again to decided who I hate.

As far as what you posted................sheeeesh I can see how a simple mind would take it that way. Dave are you a simple thinking man ? I hope not.

1....what I said about abortion is simple...it's the womans choice. And your counter point is mute as it has absoulty nothing to so with what I said. Where did you get the idea, I have a say in how a murder person is trreated. WTF ? are you drunk...............lmao. I said , how could I make a decision about abortion if I am not a woman.

2....where did I exactly say I wanted to kill my grandson ? Or where did I say I hate him ? And where do you get the idea I am weak ? Because I spoke truth about the history of Humanity. Up until the 1940's in many parts of this country, messed up babies were quitely killed at birth. What does that have to do with me ?..........this is not the olden days.

3..I am not having an argument, you are...and not even with me. Your have an argument with " What you think I am thinking " Thats called Projection, we all do it from time to time. It's very unhealthy for a constructive talk.


Now I admit my style in my posting dealing with my grandson was a bit raw. So let me say this.....I am very pissed off at what happend to my Kid and her kid..we all are. It was a mistake not something that just happend ok. SO when my daughter calls me like 4 times a week in the middle of the night becasue her son needed CPR AGAIN cause he choked on his vomit or spit. He almost died again................See past you and self induced projections...dude put youself into her shoes.

Point I was really making is this.........At what point is the pain of the many worth less than the life of a very seriously whacked Fetus or newborn ?

The reason people "murder" screwed up infants is simple. The weight it brings to the life of the many, is worth far less than the unhealthy life of a whacked child. Understand that ? It would be better to put that child out of it's and our misery.........


It's a valid point and in the past it was expected.

Now if you want to stay away from JUDEMENTS and stick to a honest approach to this, I will continue this with you....If not............
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Old July 5th, 2007, 06:36 PM   #38
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Did you read the article? How much pain was the woman would aborted her baby in? At least your daughter is able to love her son instead of just killing it.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 07:13 PM   #39
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I can tell you emphaticly that had my family had the choice, knowing in advance his troubles....abortion would have been a simple choice to make.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:09 PM   #40
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I can tell you emphaticly that had my family had the choice, knowing in advance his troubles....abortion would have been a simple choice to make.
I see what your saying being a Mother and Grandmother. Watching your child go though this . My heart goes out to you and your family. Most People do not know what they would do untill after they have been put through something like this.

Same as Assisted Death for people that are in Pain. Untill you are there and see someone suffer you have no Idea.
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