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Old May 21st, 2007, 01:41 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by suepahfly View Post
I think he was saying that we as offroaders should do this, and was giving GLFWDA's mission as an example. I don't think he meant to say that GLFWDA wasn't going to help or anything. At least that's how I interpreted it.
exactly right I know that GLFWDA is helping...I am a member of GLFWDA, as is Tim. I have talked with Pat (Brower) and I am also working with Tim to try and plan a weekend to clean this up. I am also in frequent contact with Steve Walker about this issue, to try and restore the land the best we can
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 08:12 PM   #62
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Where did you see that GLFWDA wasn't going to help?
I know Tim is spearheading a sign, Jarhead was up this weekend & talked with Steve, Pat Brower is working with Tim & Steve to organize a work weekend to help fix the damage. Where do you see that GLFWDA is blowing this incident off?
I didn't see where Tim said he was doing a sign but I would caution anyone who might think it's a good idea to just put up a sign without the DNR's official blessing to do so. Any sign erected by a person or organization, if done so without proper location from the road, type of material, official seal of the Government body that has jurisdiction, etc.... could be hauled into court and sued by an individual that has an accident with said sign.
I'm not saying don't put one up, but rather get the proper sign from the DNR and have them tell you where exactly where to put it. This is no different that GLFWDA and it's member clubs requirements we must abide by when erecting STOP signs, INTERSECTION signs, and other regulatory signage we put up in the woods. There is a specific manual and a DNR sponsored sign installation class that they hold each year so that sponsors properly erect signs and not put them in jeopardy of getting dragged into a lawsuit. Which would seriously hamper our ability to get insurance in the future.
The other problem with just putting a sign up is it has NO enforcement criteria behind. Any lawyer could easily show that the sign was not an official sign installed or directed to be installed by the DNR, hence any ticket written could easily be thrown out of court.
So, I suggest a bit of planning and cooperation with the DNR and Conservancy folks to get the right sign installed in the right location to do the right job.
I'm sure if you'd like a second opinion Paul M (Signman) who has taken all the sign certification classes tha the State of Michigan requires for sign installation on by County Road Comissions on public roads could echo my concerns. Paul is the ONLY person in the entire state working on the ORV Grants Program, including DNR officials that has taken these classes.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 08:26 PM   #63
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Jim it was discussed by Tim with the DNR. I think you can read it over on GLFWDA. They had no problem with the idea of the signs...and I guess they said that they would not remove them either. Tim would know more in detail
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 08:30 PM   #64
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I think Jim's point is that sure, the local DNR officer can say "great idea". But he doesn't necessarily know the state laws on sign installation, the liability that GLFWDA might incur, proper location, material, setback, etc.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 11:12 PM   #65
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Jim it was discussed by Tim with the DNR. I think you can read it over on GLFWDA. They had no problem with the idea of the signs...and I guess they said that they would not remove them either. Tim would know more in detail
Thanks, I went over there and found the sign reference and then added my $0.03 worth!
My real concern is liability. Plastering our name all over a NON-official sign is a sure fire way of getting dragged into court. Especially if someone gets hurt, which HAS happened.
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Old May 24th, 2007, 10:03 AM   #66
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Hey guys - I swapped some e-mails this morning with the DNR (both E UP and SSM) on the sign issue, and we need to delay our sign plans a bit. GLFWDA has insurance to do sign work, but only for projects that are under contract with the DNR. Another problem is the State's current lock down on spending that hasn't already been approved. That makes it difficult to get a restoration grant approved. I let them know there are private and/or GLFWDA funds available to help with this aspect of the restoration, but I am not sure how easy that works at DNR or SoM. But we definitely need to make sure any sign work we do up there is done through the proper channels. I will post an update as soon as I get more information.
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Old May 24th, 2007, 02:10 PM   #67
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Update - DNR recently received some State-approved signs in the Soo office, and they will work the DI Offroad Club and Steve Walker to get them placed. DI Offroad Club does the trail maintenance on the island, so they are already approved to do sign work as needed. Pat from DNR said there might not be enough posts and hardware to get the signs up, so for those who can't make it up there to work with DI Offroad, they may need some financial support - we don't need DNR approval to buy the supplies. The folks from DNR seem pleased at the level of response from the 4x4 community.
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Old May 24th, 2007, 08:16 PM   #68
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I hate to say it like this because I don't agree with what happened but wouldn't raking it out and "fixing" it only make it worse?

So you have a 4000 yr old sediment bed and someone mixed it up. If you are really interested in preserving and studying it wouldn't you want to leave it alone and see if mother nature can heal herself? Isn't that the best course of action to truly preserve the area? I know it has been harmed but going back and trying to manually reconstruct something that is 100% natural seems very hypocritical to me. I would think building a barricade and signing the area would be a far better way to spend our time and money.

If you want to fire back at the eco-nazi's here you go

This picture was taken last November in Arches National Park. The tree huggers in this car were walking in the park on a nondesignated trail clearly in a sensitive area that was full of cryptobiotic crust and they didn't seem to care as we watched them walk off into the desert. We took this picture in hopes we could use it for this very reason.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 07:06 AM   #69
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As Phittie100 mentioned, I have some signs coming from the DNR and enough sign posts on hand to place a fair amount of them along road running thru the section of ALVAR we are talking about.

After talking to a few different indivduals concerning the "Rake and Shovel" process, everyone feels that is the best approach. Its not so much trying to fill the ruts.. its working to knock down the berms created when the tires pushed the soil to the outer edge of the track. Basicly, an effort will be made to smooth the ruts were we can.

I don't believe anyone sees this as a total restoration/re-planting etc.... I think its more of an good faith effort to show we (as a user group) are just as dismayed by the thought less action of a bunch of law breakers as everyone else. I'm planning on inviting the media as well. Again its my intention to turn a negitive happening into a postive event.

I can say this much, people who initially condemed and lumped all Full sized
4x4's as group, for this destruction out on the plains; because they didn't understand the difference the User group as a whole, are now making postive comments about the simple fact the Full size organizations are willing to help lessen the damage and do what they can to help protect the area.

So, as far as I'm concerned, our good intentions are already paying off.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 07:19 AM   #70
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Also, from an investigational point of view, it will be good to monitor the repair on an ongoing basis to see how long it takes the area to recover - if ever. Might even be a good spot (with the signage) to demonstrate what damage can be done to the land by irresponsible driving.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 07:24 AM   #71
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I don't know what the public perception is on DI, but all the DNR folks I spoke to yesterday were very impressed by the quick communication by Steve (WalkerDI), Tim (MuddyPaws) and others, and that fact that as a group the full-size community was working quickly to try to minimize the damage caused by a handful of bad apples. I have to admit I learned a lot from this - I never knew what a unique ecosystem existed on the Maxton Plains, only visited DI once.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 08:14 AM   #72
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I applaud everyone for their efforts.

After some heated discussions, it looks like it is on a great track. I knew the DNR could pony up some signs.

Steve, if you get some positive (or negative) media coverage, could you please post it up?
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Old May 25th, 2007, 08:36 AM   #73
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when i saw the third pic i had a serious feeling of dajavous (probably spellled wrong) . But if u take the jeep with the Greatlakes 4x4 sticker on the back window of his tan hardtop (the picture that was the home page pic for like the past four days) there seems to be a big similarity there to me. I tried to find the pic to post it with this message but i could find it.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 01:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WalkerDI View Post
As Phittie100 mentioned, I have some signs coming from the DNR and enough sign posts on hand to place a fair amount of them along road running thru the section of ALVAR we are talking about.

After talking to a few different indivduals concerning the "Rake and Shovel" process, everyone feels that is the best approach. Its not so much trying to fill the ruts.. its working to knock down the berms created when the tires pushed the soil to the outer edge of the track. Basicly, an effort will be made to smooth the ruts were we can.

I don't believe anyone sees this as a total restoration/re-planting etc.... I think its more of an good faith effort to show we (as a user group) are just as dismayed by the thought less action of a bunch of law breakers as everyone else. I'm planning on inviting the media as well. Again its my intention to turn a negitive happening into a postive event.

I can say this much, people who initially condemed and lumped all Full sized
4x4's as group, for this destruction out on the plains; because they didn't understand the difference the User group as a whole, are now making postive comments about the simple fact the Full size organizations are willing to help lessen the damage and do what they can to help protect the area.

So, as far as I'm concerned, our good intentions are already paying off.
Good stuff, thanks Steve and Tim!
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Old May 25th, 2007, 02:47 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
Also, from an investigational point of view, it will be good to monitor the repair on an ongoing basis to see how long it takes the area to recover - if ever. Might even be a good spot (with the signage) to demonstrate what damage can be done to the land by irresponsible driving.
Taking a picture before and after a year or so might also provide additional ability get some more positive press coverage showing how the good will efforts of the 4-wheeling community paid off in repairing the damaged area.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 03:40 PM   #76
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Taking a picture before and after a year or so might also provide additional ability get some more positive press coverage showing how the good will efforts of the 4-wheeling community paid off in repairing the damaged area.
jim-kb8ymf
I agree; could be quite an experience for learning the impact of the damage and a great lesson TO STAY THE fukc ON THE APPROVED TRAILS.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #77
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TO STAY THE fukc ON THE APPROVED TRAILS.

I vote that ScOoTeR is not allowed to help with the wording of the new signs.
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Old May 25th, 2007, 11:54 PM   #78
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I vote that ScOoTeR is not allowed to help with the wording of the new signs.

I dunno . . .


It's kinda catchy.
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