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Old May 18th, 2007, 07:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
Excellent info Pat!

It is funny how some in the DNR can look the other way when land is damaged by logging. I see this "Rape" every weekend when I go trailriding. Kalkaska, Denton Creek, and Tomahawk are the trails I've been on this year that have been heavilly forested.
What really sucks is that the land, once stripped of its trees and shade, turns into a sandy mess and erodes away.

Thank you!

My point was actually taken the right way by someone. Tim tells me that the DNR bioligist was upset by my comments. Heaven forbid someone would complain about incoming revenue at the cost of several thousands of acres destroyed over the years by the logging industry. Nowhere did I say that I thought the situation at hand wasnt a travesty and that it needs to be dealt with.

I have taken pics of an area that was logged around the Tomahawk Lake route in Atlanta MI while we were doing maintenence. They had destroyed (read, run over with skidders) several of the ORV program sign poles. These poles are $20 each with the signs on them costing anywhere from $9 to $20. Cost the ORV program approx. $200 to replce these signs. Does not seem like much money to them but for our tiny little ORV fund it could go a long ways. I sent these pics to the DNR and never heard back.

Now back to the original topic, I applaud whoever shows up to help fix the damage and hope whoever did it gets themselves educated.
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Old May 18th, 2007, 09:18 PM   #42
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What cheeses me off is that once again, us bad boy wheelers are the ones getting emailed by the DNR............ WHEN............ the local police believe it to be a bunch of locals.

Let them go fix it!

Sure, it's a great gesture on our part. But what a great precident to set........ every time a drunken local makes some ruts, let's just blame the full size wheelers and they will feel so guilty they will rush to fix it for us.
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Old May 18th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #43
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Ok, fuck it. Let's not do anything. Let's show them that we don't give a shit. Let's not take this opportunity to meet and work with new DNR people and new groups.

logging doesn't factor into this. With logic like that...since deer hunting is legal, I should be able to go hunt down some whales.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 06:07 AM   #44
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Easy there Timmy boy,
Seems to me that since we were contacted (or Steve was) about illegal wheeling that the verdict was already in without a trial. We immediately get blaimed before any investigation. The DNR just "assumed" that the guilty party was the full size user crowd.

Wouldn't it be a little more prudent to wait until after the local law enforcement does some research before blaming us? And if it truely turns out to be a local, let the law enforcement and judicial system determine who and how the cleanup is done?

Instead, you are rallying people from all over the state to rush up there and rake out some ruts just to do a little PR work. Let the dirt bags that did it spend their time and money to fix it.

Don't hand me this crap that the state can't pony up a few signs to say "keep out". They run those signs by the hundreds and they can be seen all over the state.


As far as the logging goes, seems that only a couple people can see what Pat was saying. Let me try to draw the comparison. Our state allows wetlands and forests to be destroyed all over the entire state as long as revenue is concerned. We fill in wetlands to build strip malls. (West Branch exit 212) We build logging roads with bulldozers and fill in creeks with culverts to get the logging equipment across. The Chrysler Tech Center in Auburn Hills is sitting on a low area that used to have wetlands in it.

All that stuff is OK, but when someone puts in a few ruts that will be invisible in 5 years, all holy hell breaks out.

Don't get me wrong, the act was illegal and criminal. But in the scope of eternal damage, it is pretty miniscule.

IMO, that is what Pat was saying.............. and I agree with him.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 07:12 AM   #45
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..since deer hunting is legal, I should be able to go hunt down some whales.
now your just comparing apples to roof rafters
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Old May 19th, 2007, 08:21 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Easy there Timmy boy,
Seems to me that since we were contacted (or Steve was) about illegal wheeling that the verdict was already in without a trial. We immediately get blaimed before any investigation. The DNR just "assumed" that the guilty party was the full size user crowd.

Wouldn't it be a little more prudent to wait until after the local law enforcement does some research before blaming us? And if it truely turns out to be a local, let the law enforcement and judicial system determine who and how the cleanup is done?

Instead, you are rallying people from all over the state to rush up there and rake out some ruts just to do a little PR work. Let the dirt bags that did it spend their time and money to fix it.

Don't hand me this crap that the state can't pony up a few signs to say "keep out". They run those signs by the hundreds and they can be seen all over the state.


As far as the logging goes, seems that only a couple people can see what Pat was saying. Let me try to draw the comparison. Our state allows wetlands and forests to be destroyed all over the entire state as long as revenue is concerned. We fill in wetlands to build strip malls. (West Branch exit 212) We build logging roads with bulldozers and fill in creeks with culverts to get the logging equipment across. The Chrysler Tech Center in Auburn Hills is sitting on a low area that used to have wetlands in it.

All that stuff is OK, but when someone puts in a few ruts that will be invisible in 5 years, all holy hell breaks out.

Don't get me wrong, the act was illegal and criminal. But in the scope of eternal damage, it is pretty miniscule.

IMO, that is what Pat was saying.............. and I agree with him.
What he said. But I'm sure the state officials that looked at this post earlier will not see or respond to this type of logic. They gather very "selective" evidence to plead their case.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 09:42 AM   #47
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Frustrating....we have a chance to do something good....get some recognition with the DNR and several other groups including some semi-greenies and the locals and some people would rather use this as a way to attack the DNR or the state over other issues.

Look at the pics....this WAS a fullsize user. So what investigating needs to go on here?

I think some of you need to actually read about the plains. Maybe you would understand why it is a protected land.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 10:33 AM   #48
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What investigation needs to go on?????????

What if it was a drunken local in his farm truck?

Then all the local taverns better show up to help because it was a result of drinking........ not a concerned 4x4 enthusiast.

That is a huge difference.

I guess if a gun toting drug addict does some damage then the gun shops should show up.

And since the automotive companies advertise that this is how their vehicles should be used, we better contact all the auto dealers around the state.


Yes, we can help.
Yes, it is good.

But this thread has the appearance that we "accept responsibility" for it.

And I for one do not accept any responsibility!
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Old May 19th, 2007, 03:07 PM   #49
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Hello all...

I'm going to take a minute and write down how some of the various interest groups (Eco based for the most part) are tending to view this incident.. and some of the ramifacations of it all.

I'm not very good at writing out my thoughts so I hope you'll bear with me.

I saw in a eariler post how some writers were trying to minimize the damage done to the plains "ALVAR" region by making a comparison to the amount of damage loggers can do to an open forest area.. and how, within a short span of years it nature will erase/heal all traces of the activity.

I believe I am safe in saying that the damage on the plains will not disappear /heal in any of our life times.. in fact in this specific region of the planet ( there are very few places like it in the world,,so I've been told) the damage may not disappear for generations. Its been over 4,000 years since the last ice age covered the island.. and the topsoil you can see out on the plains, is all thats been built up in that amount of time.. I'm talking about just a few inches..Do I have to draw anyone a picture?? Its taken 4,000 years to build up less than a foot of topsoil. Does anybody still want to tell me or others, its all going to go away in a couple of seasons?

Still, the issue, from a 4 wheelers point of view doesn't involve "when the damage will disapper.". the topic should be is WHO believes the damage will take generations to disappear and more importantly, what is the likely hood of this type of damage occuring again in this specific "alvar" region. Additionally, 4wheelers should be concerned about trying to make some effort to restore as much of the damage as possible.

Just for the record. I don't believe I've heard in any conversation I had with any interested parties todate.. 4x4 and Greens alike.. of any blame being placed on any single club or indivduals. However, without a doubt the damage was done by a full sized ride. I've talked with the Eastern Upper Penninsual (UP Easement & Stewardship Manager) of the Nature Conservency, The Unit Manager of the DNR, Law enforcement, The Island Heritage Group..etc..etc.. you get my drift. Conversations seem to center around the damage.. how to repair the damage.. and how to make sure it doesn't happen again. (I dont like a lot of the " make sure it doesn't happen again" ideas) Still, There has never been a question of who did it... that part is quite simple to determine..(.ie,,Full sized 4x4's)

Here's the thing though.. there are a lot of Wet Lands in the State.. Lots of Forest Land... But to my knowledge, only ONE Alvar region that grows a flower found here on Drummond. Have no doubt, Drummonds' Alvar recieves a lot high profile attention.. From universities all over the country actually..(Remember, there are only a few Alvar regions in the world.. or so I've been told) I don't care how anyone tries to midigate or lessen the damage by writing it away, or somehow talking it away because they've seen or done worse at some point in time...Make no mistake, it was the worse single fukkup I've ever known a 4 wheeler to do..ever.... and thats a fact.

Now maybe some of you think,, oh well shit happens..its a bad deal etc.. etc.. I didn't do it..not my problem.. etc.. Its only Drummond Island.. fukem they'll get over it.
Well, I've never been more serious.. when I say.. If I cant get some help repairing the damage.. I can honestly say.. Its only my take on it..but I'm thinkin all of you can pretty much kiss full size off-roading goodbye here on the island within a few years or so... There are a lot pissed off people over this,, very high profile people, and have no doubt, the Alvar region attracts as many or more "Nature Folk" as the islands' trails do Full sized 4x4's. If some serious "Good Faith" effort is not expended by Full Size organizations, clubs and online forums alike to make a co-ordinated effort to try and restore the damaged Alvar as best as possible .... well.. don't ever say you were not forwarned.

I need help... plain and simple. I'm working with some of the environmental groups to do a "rake and shovel" restoration.. no equipment or outside fill dirt.. Any Group, Assocation or interested party can contact me at the Bear Track Inn (906)493-5090.. I'd like to get all interested parites working together.

I hope people who enjoy riding Drummonds' trails will be able to continue to do so into the future .... But the key is to stay on the trails and away from private property,, picking the Nature Conservancy's land along with a parcle belonging to a private landowner was a huge mistake.

I'd like to turn a negitive happening into a positive event..
It doesn't matter who fukked up.. somebody did.. for whatever reason and I need help to restore the damage.. the Enviro groups are willing pitch in and they didnt do it either... what about you folks?

Steve Walker
President, DI Off-Road Club

Last edited by WalkerDI; May 19th, 2007 at 04:31 PM.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 04:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by WalkerDI View Post
Hello all...

I'm going to take a minute and write down how some of the various interest groups (Eco based for the most part) are tending to view this incident.. and some of the ramifacations of it all.

I'm not very good at writing out my thoughts so I hope you'll bear with me.

I saw in a eariler post how some writers were trying to minimize the damage done to the plains "ALVAR" region by making a comparison to the amount of damage loggers can do to an open forest area.. and how, within a short span of years it nature will erase/heal all traces of the activity.

I believe I am safe in saying that the damage on the plains will not disappear /heal in any of our life times.. in fact in this specific region of the planet ( there are very few places like it in the world,,so I've been told) the damage may not disappear for generations. Its been over 4,000 years since the last ice age covered the island.. and the topsoil you can see out on the plains, is all thats been built up in that amount of time.. I'm talking about just a few inches..Do I have to draw anyone a picture?? Its taken 4,000 years to build up less than a foot of topsoil. Does anybody still want to tell me or others, its all going to go away in a couple of seasons?

Still, the issue, from a 4 wheelers point of view doesn't involve "when the damage will disapper.". the topic should be is WHO believes the damage will take generations to disappear and more importantly, what is the likely hood of this type of damage occuring again in this specific "alvar" region. Additionally, 4wheelers should be concerned about trying to make some effort to restore as much as the damage as possible.

Just for the record. I don't believe I've heard in any conversation I had with any interested parties todate.. 4x4 and Greens alike.. of any blame being placed on any single club or indivduals. However, without a doubt the damage was done by a full sized ride. I've talked with the Eastern Upper Penninsual (UP Easement & Stewardship Manager) of the Nature Conservency, The Unit Manager of the DNR, Law enforcement, The Island Heritage Group..etc..etc.. you get my drift. Conversations seem to center around the damage.. how to repair the damage.. and how to make sure it doesn't happen again. (I dont like a lot of the " make sure it doesn't happen again" ideas) Still, There has never been a question of who did it... that part is quite simple to determine..(.ie,,Full sized 4x4's)

Here's the thing though.. there are a lot of Wet Lands in the State.. Lots of Forest Land... But to my knowledge, only ONE Alvar region that grows a flower found here on Drummond. Have no doubt, Drummonds' Alvar recieves a lot high profile attention.. From universities all over the country actually..(Remember, there are only a few Alvar regions in the world.. or so I've been told) I don't care how anyone tries to midigate or lessen the damage by writing it away, or somehow talking it away because they've seen or done worse at some point in time...Make no mistake, it was the worse single fukkup I've ever known a 4 wheeler to do..ever.... and thats a fact.

Now maybe some of you think,, oh well shit happens..its a bad deal etc.. etc.. I didn't do it..not my problem.. etc.. Its only Drummond Island.. fukem they'll get over it.
Well, I've never been more serious.. when I say.. If I cant get some help repairing the damage.. I can honestly say.. Its only my take on it..but I'm thinkin all of you can pretty much kiss full size off-roading goodbye here on the island within a few years or so... There are a lot pissed off people over this,, very high profile people, and have no doubt, the Alvar region attracts as many or more "Nature Folk" as the islands' trails do Full sized 4x4's. If some serious "Good Faith" effort is not expended by Full Size organizations, clubs and online forums alike to make a co-ordinated effort to try and restore the damaged Alvar as best as possible .... well.. don't ever say you were not forwarned.

I need help... plain and simple. I'm working with some of the environmental groups to do a "rake and shovel" restoration.. no equipment or outside fill dirt.. Any Group, Assocation or interested party can contact me at the Bear Track Inn (906)493-5090.. I'd like to get all interested parites working together.
I'd like to turn a negitive happening into a positive event..
It doesn't matter who fukked up.. somebody did.. and I need help to restore the damage.. the Enviro groups are willing pitch in and they didnt do it either... what about you folks?

Steve Walker
President, DI Off-Road Club

way to go steve, nicely put I agree with that 100%, and I also agree with Tim on this issue.

So what if it was a local who did this? Does it matter? The authorities cant prove that, and that means that it WILL NOT get fixed. The people who did this obviously didnt care, so what is going to make them just jump up and say..."I'm going to go fixed all the damage that I just did"??? When the blame gets pushed to a fullsize 4x4, we are willing to step in and help out, because Drummond Island matters to us, and we are willing to make extra steps to conserve the trails on the island and keep them for the future. I thought that was one of the missions of GLFWDA? Hmmm .

The Maxton Plains have no relavence to logging. Zip, zero zilch. This area is an extremely rare ecosystem, and when the soil gets disturbed, it takes years and years to return (like steve said.) This has no comparision to the logging that takes place in other areas of the island, and the state a like. Yes we know that money talks, and that is an obvious fact, so I really dont think that it has to be related. The parties are not angry that some FOREST got tore up, they are frustrated that this extremely fragile and rare ecosystem became damaged. Not by LOGGING, but by a fullsize 4x4. That is why we are willing to help out, and restore the land the best that we can...because we CARE about the island. If you have the attitude like "well those damn locals did it, let them fix it up" that is fine, just stay out of this issue. We dont really need people with attitudes like that involved here. We are doing our part to save Drummond Island for the future

How do we accept responsibility for this? Because we are willing to do a trail cleanup on it? So everytime GLFWDA does a cleanup, and picks up all the trash, are we assuming responsibility for it? I dont think so, some of you just dont get the picture:miff:

Last edited by drummond; May 19th, 2007 at 04:31 PM.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 05:21 PM   #51
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Well, for the first time, I think that this has been clearly stated in a logical manner.

Thank you Steve.

No, it is not that I do not care about Drummond Island or a sensitive ecosystem.

Yes, as I said before, I think it is a good gesture and the way Steve explains it, it makes even more sense. It would be great to be side by side with the enviro's cleaning up the mess.

HOWEVER, I do not want it to be construed that it is our responsibility to clean it up because it was a full size vehicle. Our responsibility to help clean it up is because we care. Please take a moment to consider what I have said. I repeat. We will help clean it up because we care. Not because a secretary of state licensed vehicle driven by an idiot is somehow construed as "one of us".

It does really seem odd to me that since this is such a sensitive area, only one of a few around the world, how in common sense name can the state not put signs around it? Go around here to any of the state land areas and there is a sign every 100 feet.

Once again Steve, thankyou for explaining the issues without makeing it sound like "we are to blame"

Jim

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Old May 19th, 2007, 09:50 PM   #52
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Well said Steve. I agree 100% that WE as 4x4 enthusiasts need to lend a hand to fix this problem. As someone that enjoys the trails and park on D.I. I hope I can help in some way.

As for the who did this part of the thread. Does it matter? Yes and no. Yes in that just because someone drives a 4WD truck does not really put that person into the same group with us. No because either way WE need to help fix the problem.

The logging issue is a very valid one. This may not be the right time or thread for it but it is still valid. The state will and does destroy the very same thing they fine us for in the name of $$$. They destroy forests and wetlands many many times more than any of our groups ever could. But since they are making $$$ they don't care. When some of us do it they again see a way of making more $$ by giving us a fine. The way I see it both are wrong.

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How do we accept responsibility for this? Because we are willing to do a trail cleanup on it? So every time GLFWDA does a cleanup, and picks up all the trash, are we assuming responsibility for it? I don't think so, some of you just don't get the picture:miff:

I think some people are a little upset that our community got the blame right away when it might not even be a wheeler at all. Should we help to fix the problem even though we didn't cause the problem? Of course we should,but that doesnt mean we cant be frustrated at the same time for being blamed for it. I think the trail clean ups are great and wish I could be more a part of them. The clean up we did with DMJC a while back open my eyes to the problem we have with dumping in the forests. I will gladly help when I can, but at the same time I am pissed that I even need to be there in the first place.


Tim and Brett please keep us posted as to how we down state can help out up there.
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Old May 19th, 2007, 10:28 PM   #53
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Steve,Mike Hennig here. if you remember I,m coming up end of may, CAN I HELP?????
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Old May 20th, 2007, 08:30 AM   #54
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Well said Steve. I agree 100% that WE as 4x4 enthusiasts need to lend a hand to fix this problem. As someone that enjoys the trails and park on D.I. I hope I can help in some way.

As for the who did this part of the thread. Does it matter? Yes and no. Yes in that just because someone drives a 4WD truck does not really put that person into the same group with us. No because either way WE need to help fix the problem.

The logging issue is a very valid one. This may not be the right time or thread for it but it is still valid. The state will and does destroy the very same thing they fine us for in the name of $$$. They destroy forests and wetlands many many times more than any of our groups ever could. But since they are making $$$ they don't care. When some of us do it they again see a way of making more $$ by giving us a fine. The way I see it both are wrong.




I think some people are a little upset that our community got the blame right away when it might not even be a wheeler at all. Should we help to fix the problem even though we didn't cause the problem? Of course we should,but that doesnt mean we cant be frustrated at the same time for being blamed for it. I think the trail clean ups are great and wish I could be more a part of them. The clean up we did with DMJC a while back open my eyes to the problem we have with dumping in the forests. I will gladly help when I can, but at the same time I am pissed that I even need to be there in the first place.


Tim and Brett please keep us posted as to how we down state can help out up there.
Nick well said. You at least understand both sides of this arguement.....which actually shouldn't be an arguement.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 08:51 PM   #55
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I thought that was one of the missions of GLFWDA? Hmmm .
Where did you see that GLFWDA wasn't going to help?
I know Tim is spearheading a sign, Jarhead was up this weekend & talked with Steve, Pat Brower is working with Tim & Steve to organize a work weekend to help fix the damage. Where do you see that GLFWDA is blowing this incident off?
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Old May 20th, 2007, 08:59 PM   #56
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Where did you see that GLFWDA wasn't going to help?
I think he was saying that we as offroaders should do this, and was giving GLFWDA's mission as an example. I don't think he meant to say that GLFWDA wasn't going to help or anything. At least that's how I interpreted it.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 09:09 PM   #57
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I have to agree that I think both statements are VERY valid.

We NEED to build our own database of photos and 'proof' of damage caused by ANY source. I know where the NFS dumped two huge piles of beach sand . . . within 3 feet of a creek. We lost a good hill climb next to that same creek due to sedimentation caused by the sand of the hill eroding and possessing the potential to flow into the creek - it hadn't yet. It was still 30 feet from getting there. I thought some filter cloth would have done the trick and still allowed recreational use of the play area. These piles of sand are washing directly into the creek every time it rains. I too, am guilty of not documenting it. I saw some future KW habitat along the Atlanta Routes we were maintaining this weekend that looked like crap too. A few pictures might convince a Court or Legislator that we're not so bad.

I agree that GLFWDA and/or the 4x4 community don't need to jump to restore every instance of illegal 4x4 damage, but think it would greatly behoove us to do so in this instance.

For all of the previously mentioned excellent reasons!

Beyond that, DNR Pat was friendly and kind enough to Steve and the 4x4 community to give us a 'heads up' about the issue. Everything I have ever heard from any and every source shows that Pat's always been one of the most understanding people the 4x4 community has ever dealt with in the Department. I believe this kind of support in the past on his part has earned and deserves our support and assistance now, especially for such a super-critical habitat.

Every project? No.
This project? Yes.

Steve, I was out doing Route Maintenance all weekend and just heard your message when I walked in around 9 PM. I'll be calling tomorrow evening, after I get home from work.
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Old May 20th, 2007, 09:34 PM   #58
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Beyond that, DNR Pat was friendly and kind enough to Steve and the 4x4 community to give us a 'heads up' about the issue. Everything I have ever heard from any and every source shows that Pat's always been one of the most understanding people the 4x4 community has ever dealt with in the Department. I believe this kind of support in the past on his part has earned and deserves our support and assistance now, especially for such a super-critical habitat.
That is very cool to have someone that is willing to work with us like that. This is the perfect time to return the favor.

For those of us that dont know, what kind of habitat is this we are talking about? I have been to D.I. a handful of times but cant say I am very familiar with all of the island.
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Old May 21st, 2007, 06:04 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Throwin Mudd View Post
That is very cool to have someone that is willing to work with us like that. This is the perfect time to return the favor.

For those of us that dont know, what kind of habitat is this we are talking about? I have been to D.I. a handful of times but cant say I am very familiar with all of the island.
Steve Walker touched on it a bit in his post, but here are a few excellent links that explain its importance:

The Nature Conservancy\\\\\\\\\\'s Page on Maxton Plains

The DNR\\\\\\\\\\'s Page on Maxton Plains
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Old May 21st, 2007, 06:17 AM   #60
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Thanks Scooter.
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