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Old May 6th, 2007, 01:59 PM   #101
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FYI these laws were in place LONG before Granholm was in office... heck many were closed when the state could not maintain them anymore after Engler robbed the rec funs and moved them to the general budget years ago. This has been happening for a VERY long time, not just in the last 6 or 8 years.
If I may add, most of the laws that govern the lands we are fighting for were slide in while nobody was watching. Engler did a couple of giant rips to the ORV program by closing rec areas to ORVs, and then handing ALL of the control of our state lands to the DNR. that was in `1991 he used the excuse that the ORV folks were bring to many law suits againest the state so he oppted to shut it down.

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I likely will be at the next ORV meeting. I just hope that old geezer (I don't know his name) doesn't talk about trying to legislate the need for differentials on quads again because 'live axles are unsafe and tear up the land more' I might have to stand up and explain how it is HIS views that is part of the reason that Michigan is in the tank... for this being a recreation state it is views like HIS that are driving tourism away and closing trails.
that old Guys name is Glen Moll, he's another one who has been at this too long to fight the fight. without the changing of people at the front lines there are no new ideas brought to the table. the worst of the bunch is Steve Kubisiak. he's as close minded and them old buggers and has very little to offer in line with making change happen.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 02:57 PM   #102
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Well its obvious what we need to do, lets quit talking about what we need to do and start on how...first we know we need to change the laws, but the way we need to do that is to get new people up there on the fight to start lobbying legislature. How do we get new people on this ORV advisory board. Lets get a small group to draw up a general consensus of what needs to be done, and start sending this petition around to each forum located in Michigan. We could get everyone to digitally "sign" it, then have this emailed back to someone at a certain time from each forum admin. Then submit this to the government. That way people could get their voices heard if they don't feel the need or have the money to spend to join GLFWDA or united. Other ideas?
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Old May 6th, 2007, 06:27 PM   #103
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Getting on the ORV advisory board will help, but it's not really all that powerful. What we need is lobbying power with the legislators. That means a show of force (large numbers of people) and support for legislators (large amounts of cash) -- we're on our way at Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association -- please check it out and considering joining. Why are the snowmobilers able to get anything they want? Because they have the people and the money and the power to be heard. Support the Sport! www.glfwda.org

Last edited by Zookeeper; May 6th, 2007 at 08:10 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 06:50 PM   #104
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Why are the snowmobilers able to get anything they want? Because they have the people and the money and the power to be heard. Support the Sport! www.glfwda.org
seems like the state bends overbackwards for snowmibilers and their seasonal, I can't speak for everyone, buti wheel my $hit year round




I couldn't afford to join GLFWDA, BUT I FOUND A WAY and i know if i can alot of you others can to
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Old May 6th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #105
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And your last thread post, you should be careful.........I did help you pick up trash two years ago. I had other obligations for this past year, other wise I would have been there.
Like I said earlier, what you guys do is awesome, and you have my respect.
But we are losing faster then you guys are gaining, and we need to get it done, or we are done.

Thank You for the discussion.

Just a side note for clarification the trail trash clean-up mentioned is an event put on by the Two Trackers. They graciously ran it in conjunction with the GLFWDA Quarterly & Carla Boucher's visit. While I would love to take credit for the clean-up, that is a Two Tracker event.

As for everything else in this thread... I've been following it & I like how it's panning out. Many wonder why I don't post more as the President of GLFWDA, but when others more knowledgeable than I present the Associations side I feel it's better to not muddy the waters so to speak with a similar post.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 07:07 PM   #106
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I couldn't afford to join GLFWDA, BUT I FOUND A WAY and i know if i can alot of you others can to
You bring up a good point. I have heard more that one say they can't afford it. In these tough times, I realize money is tight for most. I look at it a couple different ways.
It's one dinner & a movie out of the entire year.
If you drink one Coke per day and throw away the bottle, those 365 $0.10 bottle would pay your annual dues.
Many of us spend $5 - $10 per day going out for lunch. Eat light or skip luch once every 3 months and you have paid for it.

So, when a feller has $1500 worth of wheels & tires on his rig and goes on line telling everyone how he went to the bar over the weekend.............

It's not about the dollars as much as it is about priorities.

End of preaching.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 07:09 PM   #107
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Just a side note for clarification the trail trash clean-up mentioned is an event put on by the Two Trackers. They graciously ran it in conjunction with the GLFWDA Quarterly & Carla Boucher's visit. While I would love to take credit for the clean-up, that is a Two Tracker event.

As for everything else in this thread... I've been following it & I like how it's panning out. Many wonder why I don't post more as the President of GLFWDA, but when others more knowledgeable than I present the Associations side I feel it's better to not muddy the waters so to speak with a similar post.
Hope you don't mind Skip, just added you to my "buddy" list.

Please have the membership secretary check their email tomorrow, as I had to send a word document for my membership application, the paypal process did not direct me to a form to fill out online. Thank you and I look forward to receiving my first issue of "the boondocker".
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Old May 6th, 2007, 07:15 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
You bring up a good point. I have heard more that one say they can't afford it. In these tough times, I realize money is tight for most. I look at it a couple different ways.
It's one dinner & a movie out of the entire year.
If you drink one Coke per day and throw away the bottle, those 365 $0.10 bottle would pay your annual dues.
Many of us spend $5 - $10 per day going out for lunch. Eat light or skip luch once every 3 months and you have paid for it.

So, when a feller has $1500 worth of wheels & tires on his rig and goes on line telling everyone how he went to the bar over the weekend.............

It's not about the dollars as much as it is about priorities.

End of preaching.
thats pretty much exactly how Trail Fanatic explained it to me when i said i couldn't afford, and after this i joined last Fri.....
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Old May 6th, 2007, 09:58 PM   #109
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"Getting on the ORV advisory board will help, but it's not really all that powerful..."[/url]
Let's see....the chairman of the above; working on his second unannounced and expired term...heads up the same unapproachable/anonymous council where they literally BRAG about making all the major decisions....with no other one person ever being quoted as speaking for 'all of us' at any one time since the guy first showed up.

Nah, no 'power' there ...and I say let's keep his sidekick rolling along on these "we can't talk about that" long-expired public representative terms also.

Yeah, the board's not all that powerful...but if you go down the hall here and meet with these exact same people BEFORE the board meeting and behind these closed doors...we'll clue you in to everything that the DNR force-feeds the peon general public only once every three 3 months or more.

Either people are just plain ignorant of the way that this system has worked....or they simply allow statements such as the above to be passed off as fact in order to con others into believing something else.

It's the same man (and his national/local organization) pulling the levers behind that curtain, folks and it has been for years.....so let's quit trying to turn the focus elsewhere with this 'contact your legislature; because none of us ever approach them as a group' CRAP once and for all.

Seriously, it' is more of a reflection on the group as a whole when you allow something like the above to be said (with no 'wait a minute' whatsoever)...than anybody actually trying to make you believe it in the first place.

You guys have allowed the application system for this board to get completely out of control...and now there is no one simply man enough to stand up and demand that it be fixed LONG after the horse has already left the barn.

By the way, can you get 'banned' on here for simply telling the truth?

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Old May 6th, 2007, 10:27 PM   #110
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How long ago was it posted?
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Old May 6th, 2007, 10:47 PM   #111
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By the way, can you get 'banned' on here for simply telling the truth?
No but you can for being a fucking idiot........you should leave before that happends to you.
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Old May 6th, 2007, 11:16 PM   #112
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You guys have allowed the application system for this board to get completely out of control...

SHUT THE fukc UP or join glfwda (if you havent already) and then you can point fingers (at yourself)

instead of being a know-it-all about the legislative workings in the state why dont you put yourself in a position where you can put your knowledge to use rather than telling glfwda they are going about it entirely wrong.

edited: i retracted my offer because i feel that the representation of glfwda is better left to those who can keep a calm composure reguardless of the situation.

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Old May 6th, 2007, 11:23 PM   #113
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I had been thinking about joining GLFWDA for a while but I hadn't had the money. Well, I just bought a house so I have even less money for the next 30 years, but I just coughed up the $35 and I am now a member as of 2 minutes ago.

I love the sport too much to let it go to hell. If we can figure out a plan to get the DNR or whomever we need to to listen to our concerns, that will be a big step toward saving what we all (at least most of us) love, FOUR-wheeling.

BTW, my avatar is from the badlands, where driving in water is legal. Just don't want any grief cause of that.

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Old May 6th, 2007, 11:25 PM   #114
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Hey Roadhouse,
Maybe we should try to get our former wheeling buddy/DNR officer to chat about things?
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Old May 6th, 2007, 11:38 PM   #115
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a few thoughts...

#1 Maybe i missed to but I didn't see anyone post the information about where and when the ORV advisory board meeting is. It's this week, Wednesday May 9th. More info: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...E_180055_7.pdf

I don't know if I'll make it, probably not this time.

#2 I didn't see the "boy scout trail" video before it was removed, but I have wheeled some of those CFA lands, and had gone in with the understanding that they were legal, although I don't know the actual laws governing those type of lands.

#3 I did watch the "Cedar River" video and really, don't see the big deal. If no one told you it was in Michigan you wouldn't know unless you yourself ran that trail. The sign at the beginning looks like one of those signs that you see along ORV route that says in big letter "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" and in tiny letter under it "unless licensed by the secretary of state". I know that that sign is not meant to supersede the "2wd car" law but I'm also pretty sure that if you got a ticket on one of those roads you could fight in and win because you were in compliance with the signs "on the ground" and it's the states fault if those don't reflect the laws on the books. What i see in that video is just some people having fun following an existing muddy 2 track.

#4 about the 2wd thing, that is a definition of what is considered a "road" in state forests, nothing more. As far as I know it doesn't mean a thing outside of state forests.

#5 I don't think there's a law saying "you can't spin a tire" I believe it says "you can't drive in such a way as to cause erosion". Just what is meant by that would seem to be up to the interpretation of the CO and the judge if you fight it.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 12:18 AM   #116
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Question for "OneManBanned"... are you the guy that showed up to an ORV meeting and got removed for being a disturbance and a general 'jerk off' (that's an industry term).

If you can't control your anger and present yourself as a rational person, nobody is ever going to listen to you. I myself would have liked to hear more about this alleged abuse of power and tenure in the system. If it's a FACT that can be proven on the books, then hell yes I'm all for ejecting some ass hats that abuse the system. But honestly you sound like a drunk in a bar picking a fight. And all people do with them is roll thier eyes and continue thier conversations. Much like what just happened.

Yes, I am QUITE ignorant to the system as I'm stuck out here in California until my service is up. I don't follow a lot of your innuendo's because I don't have the backstory. Are you saying that GLFWDA is impotent either by structure or intentionally? Are you saying something about someone IN GLFWDA? Or are you talking about the ORV board member(s)?

I'm not trying to be a dick and show you what a big brain I have, I'm just trying to understand your point.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 04:27 AM   #117
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Yup, he's the guy.

Nuff said.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 05:33 AM   #118
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Gut check everyone...any department's "advisory board" is just that, advisory in nature and useless beyond the department being able to do whatever they want with a clear conscience because "they heard from the public advisory board."

So, I still stick by my belief that the advisory board isn't all that powerful. However, the DNR is powerful -- too powerful. And since it's an executive branch department, the only way to balance that power is via the Legislature -- one of the other three powerful branches of government. In theory, the Legislature is more representative of the people because there are 148 elected officials involved as opposed to one elected official and thousands of bureaucrats on a power trip.

That's just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. However, I've worked in a state department that thrived on "public input" and I've worked in the Legislature, so I have a bit of experience on which to base that opinion. (Doesn't mean I'm necessarily right -- again it's just my opinion based on my personal experiences, just like every other opinion on here.)

On a side note, I'm thrilled to see all the people getting involved on this thread, getting fired up about doing something and joining GLFWDA, etc. The momentum is great -- now let's keep it up. (That's what she said! -- any "Office" fans on here? )
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Old May 7th, 2007, 07:08 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
You bring up a good point. I have heard more that one say they can't afford it. In these tough times, I realize money is tight for most. I look at it a couple different ways.
It's one dinner & a movie out of the entire year.
If you drink one Coke per day and throw away the bottle, those 365 $0.10 bottle would pay your annual dues.
Many of us spend $5 - $10 per day going out for lunch. Eat light or skip luch once every 3 months and you have paid for it.

So, when a feller has $1500 worth of wheels & tires on his rig and goes on line telling everyone how he went to the bar over the weekend.............

It's not about the dollars as much as it is about priorities.

End of preaching.
Not only that but as well as joining GLFWDA they also join UFWDA automatically by doing so! Major bonus there!Thats like joining two associations for the price of one!
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Old May 7th, 2007, 07:12 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post
Let's see....the chairman of the above; working on his second unannounced and expired term...heads up the same unapproachable/anonymous council where they literally BRAG about making all the major decisions....with no other one person ever being quoted as speaking for 'all of us' at any one time since the guy first showed up.

Nah, no 'power' there ...and I say let's keep his sidekick rolling along on these "we can't talk about that" long-expired public representative terms also.

Yeah, the board's not all that powerful...but if you go down the hall here and meet with these exact same people BEFORE the board meeting and behind these closed doors...we'll clue you in to everything that the DNR force-feeds the peon general public only once every three 3 months or more.

Either people are just plain ignorant of the way that this system has worked....or they simply allow statements such as the above to be passed off as fact in order to con others into believing something else.

It's the same man (and his national/local organization) pulling the levers behind that curtain, folks and it has been for years.....so let's quit trying to turn the focus elsewhere with this 'contact your legislature; because none of us ever approach them as a group' CRAP once and for all.

Seriously, it' is more of a reflection on the group as a whole when you allow something like the above to be said (with no 'wait a minute' whatsoever)...than anybody actually trying to make you believe it in the first place.

You guys have allowed the application system for this board to get completely out of control...and now there is no one simply man enough to stand up and demand that it be fixed LONG after the horse has already left the barn.

By the way, can you get 'banned' on here for simply telling the truth?

I was wondering how long before you popped in this thread. Do you ever provide any factual evidence along with your :chiefwoohaw:?

If so, I would actually try to comprehend your :chiefwoohaw:

But as of right now, your :chiefwoohaw: is just :chiefwoohaw:

You say 2nd expired and unannounced term. I'm sure you have documentation of this
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