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Old May 8th, 2007, 06:32 PM   #1
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Default Side Note to Video thread - OMB

I didn't want to hijack the Video thread with this other topic, so I posted these quotes form that thread here:


Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post
The only people who (quote/unquote) "vote" on these people are the DNR themselves...every one of them has always been hand-picked by nobody but....
I've been mulling this one over while working and think I've had an epiphany! I think I understand what it is you're trying to bring to our attention. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think it goes hand in hand with what Zookeeper was getting at:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zookeeper View Post
Gut check everyone...any department's "advisory board" is just that, advisory in nature and useless beyond the department being able to do whatever they want with a clear conscience because "they heard from the public advisory board."

So, I still stick by my belief that the advisory board isn't all that powerful. However, the DNR is powerful -- too powerful. And since it's an executive branch department, the only way to balance that power is via the Legislature -- one of the other three powerful branches of government.
I heard (but haven't had time to track down the facts) that the AB used to actually have some REAL authority over the Department, but that it was lost about the same time the membership process for the AB was handed over to the Department (also by Engler).

So, membership used to be determined by the public and it used to be able to require Department perform in regards to the ORV system.

Now, membership is determined by the DNR and the AB has NO real authority, can only 'advise' the DNR on how it would 'like' to see the system operated.

Am I close?
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Old May 8th, 2007, 08:49 PM   #2
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Bless you for trying your hardest.
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Old May 8th, 2007, 09:37 PM   #3
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My guess is no. I tried to point out in one of the other threads that I thought he was getting worked up over nothing because the AB doesn't have much power. He proceeded to tell me in his usual short sentences how wrong I was. I'm not gonna bother trying to find it.

Well, I changed my mind. I don't know how to link other posts so I'll do it the stupid way.

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...t=36508&page=4

post #76 was my comment about not much clout
post #77 was his reply

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Old May 8th, 2007, 09:46 PM   #4
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maybe omb can be a good lesson to us on how the actions of someone relates to how others perceive you.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 07:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
My guess is no. I tried to point out in one of the other threads that I thought he was getting worked up over nothing because the AB doesn't have much power. He proceeded to tell me in his usual short sentences how wrong I was. I'm not gonna bother trying to find it.

Well, I changed my mind. I don't know how to link other posts so I'll do it the stupid way.

http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthr...t=36508&page=4

post #76 was my comment about not much clout
post #77 was his reply
At least he replied to you, he never did get back with me about post #90 :tonka:
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Old May 9th, 2007, 12:40 PM   #6
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The same person to come out and announce that the MMRC did indeed make all of our major decisons and that he would certainly never reveal who these people were or what their platform would ever consist of...is the same person who has been ignoring requests concerning unnanounced term extensions for years...and who now rides herd of over our one and only (quote/unquote) "public" opinion as to literally hundreds of millions in fee increases and more new trail than anybody has laid down in recent memory NATIONWIDE.

If anybody would like to try and 'spin' this further by using the 'no power' argument above....then please do so in my absence; as I am now asking the webmaster to close my account and cease my posting priveleges.

It is no small wonder that few professionals or family-types have ever wanted to get involved in this mess over these many years...and even more predictable that those in control have orchestrated this utter rudeness we witness continually portrayed....as their most effective first line of defense.

Last edited by OneManBanned; May 9th, 2007 at 12:49 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 01:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post

If anybody would like to try and 'spin' this further by using the 'no power' argument above....then please do so in my absence; as I am now asking the webmaster to close my account and cease my posting priveleges.
See you on the trails! Whoops! Guess I won't! :tonka:
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Old May 9th, 2007, 01:56 PM   #8
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Mule-ing That sounds to nasty to make legal:tonka:
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Old May 9th, 2007, 02:11 PM   #9
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Toodles!

Cracks me up........ he needs the webmaster to "cease his posting priveleges". Guess he can't keep from logging in. Must be an addict.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 04:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned
The only people who (quote/unquote) "vote" on these people are the DNR themselves...every one of them has always been hand-picked by nobody but....
Okay now THIS is something that I vehemently have a problem with. I think OMB has a DUTY to bring this to our attention. Just needs to work on his social skillz. (yes, I said doodie har, har)

So let me get this straight: The people that recommend suggestions to the DNR on our behalf, are being picked by the DNR. Any guess as to which side of the issues at hand the AB will side with? I see a clear conflict of interest here unless someone can fix my reticle pattern. If I were on the AB I wouldn't really want to 'bite the hand that appointed me to the position'. Not that there is any pay involved... or is there? Because that would be borderline criminal wouldnt it?

I'm tracking what TF is saying about the AB. And I'm trying to do what I can online to figure this thing out. Is the legislative branch the only recourse we have to keep the DNR in check like Rhino has said?

I feel we must be clear though. Although most offroaders (and hell, hunters, farmers, private land owners, etc) feel that the DNR is too powerful, too strict and a collective bunch of.... well... Eco-Nazi's (couldn't think of another word). They DO serve a purpose and are actually needed out there. I'm no tree hugger (unless you count a winch strap) by any means, but I would like my grandchildren to be able to enjoy the same trails I do years from now. The IDEA of the DNR is sound, but it's gotten too bureaucratic.

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Old May 9th, 2007, 08:42 PM   #11
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I know I'm pretty slow, but does OMB confuse anyone else?
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Old May 9th, 2007, 09:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
I know I'm pretty slow, but does OMB confuse anyone else?
I think he confuses himself
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Old May 9th, 2007, 11:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post
It is no small wonder that few professionals or family-types have ever wanted to get involved in this mess over these many years...and even more predictable that those in control have orchestrated this utter rudeness we witness continually portrayed....as their most effective first line of defense.
Interesting. "Rudeness" for you seems to be a one way street. Your first post on the subject was laced with so much poison, that Dow Chemical has to make up another batch!
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Old May 10th, 2007, 12:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
Okay now THIS is something that I vehemently have a problem with. I think OMB has a DUTY to bring this to our attention. Just needs to work on his social skills. (yes, I said doodie har, har)

So let me get this straight: The people that recommend suggestions to the DNR on our behalf, are being picked by the DNR. Any guess as to which side of the issues at hand the AB will side with? I see a clear conflict of interest here unless someone can fix my reticle pattern. If I were on the AB I wouldn't really want to 'bite the hand that appointed me to the position'. Not that there is any pay involved... or is there? Because that would be borderline criminal wouldn't it?

I'm tracking what TF is saying about the AB. And I'm trying to do what I can online to figure this thing out. Is the legislative branch the only recourse we have to keep the DNR in check like Rhino has said?

I feel we must be clear though. Although most offroaders (and hell, hunters, farmers, private land owners, etc) feel that the DNR is too powerful, too strict and a collective bunch of.... well... Eco-Nazi's (couldn't think of another word). They DO serve a purpose and are actually needed out there. I'm no tree hugger (unless you count a winch strap) by any means, but I would like my grandchildren to be able to enjoy the same trails I do years from now. The IDEA of the DNR is sound, but it's gotten too bureaucratic.
I don't know the application requirements of the AB. I'd have to look them up same as you. I have a couple of pressing projects, would you (or anyone here) mind giving it a go?

If you can't find it online from such a distance, let me know and I'll see what I can come up with.

Even if we were to get the AB filled with 4x4 enthusiasts, the DNR still doesn't HAVE to listen, right?

THAT's disconcerting.

I think that it WOULD take legislative action to change that. (???)
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Old May 10th, 2007, 08:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I don't know the application requirements of the AB. I'd have to look them up same as you. I have a couple of pressing projects, would you (or anyone here) mind giving it a go?

If you can't find it online from such a distance, let me know and I'll see what I can come up with.

Even if we were to get the AB filled with 4x4 enthusiasts, the DNR still doesn't HAVE to listen, right?

THAT's disconcerting.

I think that it WOULD take legislative action to change that. (???)
Here is what I'm doing on my end:

First, I'm reading/printing about every page of the DNR online website with regards to the ORV Advisory Board, the ORV Trails Advisory Board (I think they're two different boards, someone correct if I'm wrong or I'll discover it later) and the DNR heirarchy itself. I'm trying to establish some kind of 'chain of command' and how/when the commanders get relieved and replaced.

Also, I'm putting together a binder of LEGAL wheeling trails in Michigan. This is mostly for my personal use, but also I want to see how many trails there are (in miles) and then I'd like to ask GLFWDA to try to get an estimate on how many full sized offroad trail users there are in Michigan. This will create a "Miles per User" figure that we can then try to figure out how to improve that ratio.

What prompted this was seeing that there are about 4,000 subscribers to GL4X4.com alone (for the sake of argument I'm assuming they all have some kind of rig and use it in an offroad manner:tonka: ) and according to the DNR website there are a total of FIVE (5!) ORV Parks in Michigan. So what you're telling me with that is... you expect that on Memorial Day Weekend (the first official and possibly busiest official holiday weekend of the summer) that 800 rigs are to share all of these ORV Parks in a single day?? That's absolutely idiotic. My wife has gone to the Mounds with my brother in law and the folks from GotMud and there were FAR too many rigs (like 50?) and everyone waited around for thier turn to romp in the mud. Is capacity at these parks even able to handle 800 rigs? I doubt it, which means that now I am being denied my right to wheel by the State because there are not enough legal places to do it to support the community. Which means that now I cannot release my accumulated stress and I'm going to climb up on a clock tower and start sniping people. Although the last couple of sentences were meant to be a bit sarcastic you get my point I think. But keep in mind.....














I am sniper trained.
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Old May 10th, 2007, 08:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneManBanned View Post

If anybody would like to try and 'spin' this further by using the 'no power' argument above....then please do so in my absence; as I am now asking the webmaster to close my account and cease my posting priveleges.

Did you call this guy?

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Old May 10th, 2007, 10:54 AM   #17
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Did you call this guy?

DAD!!!

I'd heard times were hard at the plant. When did you have time to learn HTML?
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Old May 11th, 2007, 07:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick In Cali View Post
...with regards to the ORV Advisory Board, the ORV Trails Advisory Board and the DNR heirarchy itself. I'm trying to establish some kind of 'chain of command' and how/when the commanders get relieved and replaced.

...try to get an estimate on how many full sized offroad trail users there are in Michigan. This will create a "Miles per User" figure that we can then try to figure out how to improve that ratio.

... according to the DNR website there are a total of FIVE (5!) ORV Parks in Michigan.
Chain of Command? I have this, but would like to see FMFM's departmental chain too (if you happen to find one):




5 Off Road Parks? NO, try 3. Bull Gap is only 1 hill, not an entire "Park" and Black Lake is only open to ORVs LESS THAN 50" WIDE.

Here's some info I have on them:

MICHIGAN SCRAMBLE AREA ACREAGE:

SILVER LAKE, OCEANA COUNTY - 450 ACRES (OFF-ROAD AREA). OPEN APRIL 1 TO OCT. 31.
OPENED IN 1947 WHEN MAC WOODS STARTED GIVING FLORADALE GUESTS RIDES IN HOMEMADE DUNE BUGGIES.
2,000 ACRES OF SAND DUNES AVAILABLE FOR EXPLORATION AND HIKING.
SOURCE: DNR- SILVER LAKE STATE PARK INFO.

THE MOUNDS, GENESEE COUNTY PARK- ABOUT 200 ACRES ORV AREA NEAR FLINT.
SOURCE: “THE MOUNDS: AN ORV PRACTICE AREA NEAR FLINT, MI” BY LYNN CONWAY.

BULL GAP, U.S. FOREST SERVICE- 60 ACRES HILL CLIMB AREA

BLACK LAKE RECREATION AREA, EAST OF INDIAN RIVER- 400+ ACRES
OPERATED BY THE DNR -- MOTORCYCLE/ATV ONLY!

ST. HELEN'S MOTOR SPORT AREA, ST HELEN, MI- 1,280 ACRES OPERATED BY THE DNR.

TURTLE RIDGE (PRIVATELY OWNED) - DRUMMOND ISLAND 400 ACRES.

MICHIGAN'S PUBLIC ORV TRAIL/ROUTE SYSTEM PROVIDES FOUR TYPES OF RIDING OPPORTUNITIES: MOTORCYCLE TRAILS, ATV TRAILS, ORV ROUTES (OPEN TO SECRETARY OF STATE LICENSED VEHICLES), AND SCRAMBLE AREAS.

THE ORV TRAIL/ROUTE SYSTEM COVERS 3,100 MILES 73% OF WHICH IS LOCATED ON STATE FOREST LAND.

% TO MILES AVAILABLE:

GIVEN THE % AVAILABLE OF THE 3,100 MILES,
-40% CYCLE TRAIL= 1,240 MILES
-43% ATV TRAIL= 1,333 MILES
-17% ROUTE= 527 MILES

3,100 MILES BY LOCATION:

-73% STATE FOREST LAND
-14% NATIONAL FOREST
-13% COUNTY OR STATE ROADS (FOR STREET LEGAL MOTORCYCLES AS PART OF THE MICHIGAN CCC TRAIL).

# of Users?

The NFS did a study titled "Off-Highway Vehicle Recreation in the United States, Regions, and States, A National Report from the National Survey on Recreation and the Environment (NSRE)" dated June, 2005 by Ken Cordel (this includes ALL sizes though).

The USDA National Survey on Recreation and the Environment (NSRE), June 2005, by H. Ken Cordel, et. al., notes on page 15 of that report that 1/5th of Michigan’s population or about 1.5 million persons are ORV participants.

Keep in mind that Michigan has, like, 7,000,000 acres of public lands if I remember correctly. I think it's 3,000,000 State Forest and 4,000,000 National Forest. That might be the other way around - I'm lisdexic(dyslexic). That does NOT include all of the State Parks, State Game Areas, and State Recreation Areas that we're NOT allowed on.


LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND!!!!!!

. . .and THANKS!

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; May 11th, 2007 at 07:31 AM.
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Old May 11th, 2007, 12:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
Chain of Command? I have this, but would like to see FMFM's departmental chain too (if you happen to find one):




5 Off Road Parks? NO, try 3. Bull Gap is only 1 hill, not an entire "Park" and Black Lake is only open to ORVs LESS THAN 50" WIDE.

Here's some info I have on them:

MICHIGAN SCRAMBLE AREA ACREAGE:

SILVER LAKE, OCEANA COUNTY - 450 ACRES (OFF-ROAD AREA). OPEN APRIL 1 TO OCT. 31.
OPENED IN 1947 WHEN MAC WOODS STARTED GIVING FLORADALE GUESTS RIDES IN HOMEMADE DUNE BUGGIES.
2,000 ACRES OF SAND DUNES AVAILABLE FOR EXPLORATION AND HIKING.
SOURCE: DNR- SILVER LAKE STATE PARK INFO.

THE MOUNDS, GENESEE COUNTY PARK- ABOUT 200 ACRES ORV AREA NEAR FLINT.
SOURCE: “THE MOUNDS: AN ORV PRACTICE AREA NEAR FLINT, MI” BY LYNN CONWAY.

BULL GAP, U.S. FOREST SERVICE- 60 ACRES HILL CLIMB AREA

BLACK LAKE RECREATION AREA, EAST OF INDIAN RIVER- 400+ ACRES
OPERATED BY THE DNR -- MOTORCYCLE/ATV ONLY!

ST. HELEN'S MOTOR SPORT AREA, ST HELEN, MI- 1,280 ACRES OPERATED BY THE DNR.

TURTLE RIDGE (PRIVATELY OWNED) - DRUMMOND ISLAND 400 ACRES.

MICHIGAN'S PUBLIC ORV TRAIL/ROUTE SYSTEM PROVIDES FOUR TYPES OF RIDING OPPORTUNITIES: MOTORCYCLE TRAILS, ATV TRAILS, ORV ROUTES (OPEN TO SECRETARY OF STATE LICENSED VEHICLES), AND SCRAMBLE AREAS.

THE ORV TRAIL/ROUTE SYSTEM COVERS 3,100 MILES 73% OF WHICH IS LOCATED ON STATE FOREST LAND.

% TO MILES AVAILABLE:

GIVEN THE % AVAILABLE OF THE 3,100 MILES,
-40% CYCLE TRAIL= 1,240 MILES
-43% ATV TRAIL= 1,333 MILES
-17% ROUTE= 527 MILES

3,100 MILES BY LOCATION:

-73% STATE FOREST LAND
-14% NATIONAL FOREST
-13% COUNTY OR STATE ROADS (FOR STREET LEGAL MOTORCYCLES AS PART OF THE MICHIGAN CCC TRAIL).

# of Users?

The NFS did a study titled "Off-Highway Vehicle Recreation in the United States, Regions, and States, A National Report from the National Survey on Recreation and the Environment (NSRE)" dated June, 2005 by Ken Cordel (this includes ALL sizes though).

The USDA National Survey on Recreation and the Environment (NSRE), June 2005, by H. Ken Cordel, et. al., notes on page 15 of that report that 1/5th of Michigan’s population or about 1.5 million persons are ORV participants.

Keep in mind that Michigan has, like, 7,000,000 acres of public lands if I remember correctly. I think it's 3,000,000 State Forest and 4,000,000 National Forest. That might be the other way around - I'm lisdexic(dyslexic). That does NOT include all of the State Parks, State Game Areas, and State Recreation Areas that we're NOT allowed on.


LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND!!!!!!

. . .and THANKS!
I'm at work, cannot pull up the chain of command photo. The rest of this is really interesting information. I understand that the ORV Advisory Board is for ALL ORV users, but GLFWDA represents us full size (over 50") users right? The others really have nothing to complain about if you ask me. They have a shit-ton of places and trails to offroad. What I'm going to try to zero in on is the ORV "ROUTES" which are designated for over 50" wheel base.
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Old May 11th, 2007, 12:59 PM   #20
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I understand that the ORV Advisory Board is for ALL ORV users, but GLFWDA represents us full size (over 50") users right? .
Right

The scramble areas and ORV Routes are the only places on State land you're allowed to be in 4wd.

The NFS has an entire road maintenance level dedicated to "high-clearance, 4wd vehicles". They call them "Maintenance Level 2 Roads".
There are NO maps of these, currently. EACH NF is currently developing thier first Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) that will be published sometime between now and 2009. These MVUMs will show ALL of the legal level 2 roads. The problem is that they only recognize about 1/3 of the two-tracks as level 2 roads -- and trails NOT shown on the MVUM will be ILLEGAL to be on after it's published. It's up to us users to bring GPS data of those trails left off their MVUM to their attention and ask that they be included on the next year's map. This is all a result of the Route Designation Rule passed in '05 that you may have heard about. The MVUM is required to be reviewed every year and if we bring tracks to their attention, they are REQUIRED BY LAW to consider it for designation.

All you need right now are copies of the ORV Route system, there aren't any NFS maps yet.
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