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Old May 22nd, 2007, 03:56 PM   #21
Evil Queen
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I definately need a seasonal road map. I take seasonal roads whenever I can but last night I got burned. I think it ended and a trail took over and I don't know if it was legal or not and that doesn't sit well with me. I've seen the definition on here about seasonal roads being passable by a 2 wheel drive car and I know many of them up here are not. Hell, many times the regular back roads are practically impassable without car damage. Until I get a map I'm sticking to the main roads.
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Old May 22nd, 2007, 11:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Evil Queen View Post
I definitely need a seasonal road map. I take seasonal roads whenever I can but last night I got burned. I think it ended and a trail took over and I don't know if it was legal or not and that doesn't sit well with me. I've seen the definition on here about seasonal roads being passable by a 2 wheel drive car and I know many of them up here are not. Hell, many times the regular back roads are practically impassable without car damage. Until I get a map I'm sticking to the main roads.

Seasonal Roads are NOT covered by the same definition as a State Forest Road (the 2wd thing you quoted). They are the jurisdiction of the local CRC.


TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE :
(I'm not a real doctor, I just play one on TV)

State Forest Land:

2WD, creating an erosive condition, and wetland issues all apply

State Game and Recreation Areas:

NO ORVs ALLOWED

National Forest Land:

2WD does NOT apply
-BUT-
erosive condition and wetland issues do
You're also supposed to stay on recognized roads and trails but they don't have a map of them available to the public.

County Unimproved, Seasonal, and Poorly Maintained Roads:

2WD does NOT apply
-BUT-
erosive condition and wetland issues MIGHT
I don't think it's ever been pushed in court to find out for sure.
It might depend on the severity of the infraction too.

CFA LANDS:

I have NO clue!
There simply aren't any near me to have ever needed to learn about them.
I would THINK that, since they are administered by the DNR, that the rules would be the same as for a State Forest.

Private Property:

2WD does NOT apply
Erosive condition does NOT apply
-BUT- Wetland issues still do


Wetland issues ALWAYS do.

If anyone knows about CFA lands 'for sure', I'd like to learn!

(Dang letter sizes won't behave normally)

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; May 22nd, 2007 at 11:28 PM.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 06:50 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
Seasonal Roads are NOT covered by the same definition as a State Forest Road (the 2wd thing you quoted). They are the jurisdiction of the local CRC.


TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE :
(I'm not a real doctor, I just play one on TV)

State Forest Land:

2WD, creating an erosive condition, and wetland issues all apply

State Game and Recreation Areas:

NO ORVs ALLOWED

National Forest Land:

2WD does NOT apply
-BUT-
erosive condition and wetland issues do
You're also supposed to stay on recognized roads and trails but they don't have a map of them available to the public.

County Unimproved, Seasonal, and Poorly Maintained Roads:

2WD does NOT apply
-BUT-
erosive condition and wetland issues MIGHT
I don't think it's ever been pushed in court to find out for sure.
It might depend on the severity of the infraction too.

CFA LANDS:

I have NO clue!
There simply aren't any near me to have ever needed to learn about them.
I would THINK that, since they are administered by the DNR, that the rules would be the same as for a State Forest.

Private Property:

2WD does NOT apply
Erosive condition does NOT apply
-BUT- Wetland issues still do


Wetland issues ALWAYS do.

If anyone knows about CFA lands 'for sure', I'd like to learn!

(Dang letter sizes won't behave normally)
nice summary pat
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 08:10 AM   #24
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The issue I ran into (literally) the other night: I took a seasonal road that seemed to never end. After a couple of miles (with no outlet) there started appearing snowmobile signs. I know snowmobile trails are off limits but this has the seasonal road sign in plain view at the beginning of the road. I finally turned around because I didn't want trouble or to make things worse, as seems to be the case with illegal wheeling.

Drummond, maybe you know the road I am talking about....when you take North Conway road until it ends at Brutus road, if you cross Brutus road there is a seasonal road.

So am I supposed to be psychic as to when these become a different kind of trail and illegal?

Also, thanks Pat for all the good info! I really appreciate it.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 12:21 PM   #25
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I should have included that Snowmobile Trails are only off limits IF:

1) It's between December 1st and March 31st AND there are at LEAST 3" of snow on the ground.

I don't condone pushing the 3" requirement though. We need to befriend the snowmobilers as another form of motorized recreation. It's only for 4 months.

Note: A CRC Road designated as a sonwmobile route is PRIMARILY a County Road,but, again in the spirit of good will, if it can be avoided please do so.

2) The trail is not normally gated to wheeled use and only opened in the winter for the snowmobilers use only.
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 12:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I should have included that Snowmobile Trails are only off limits IF:

1) It's between December 1st and March 31st AND there are at LEAST 3" of snow on the ground.

I don't condone pushing the 3" requirement though. We need to befriend the snowmobilers as another form of motorized recreation. It's only for 4 months.

Note: A CRC Road designated as a sonwmobile route is PRIMARILY a County Road,but, again in the spirit of good will, if it can be avoided please do so.

2) The trail is not normally gated to wheeled use and only opened in the winter for the snowmobilers use only.

LOL I was just think I'd print this list and next time I get pulled over I could say "Well, this guy on the internet named Trail_Fanatic said so....see"
J/K but wouldn't it sound funny, to see the look on the cops face! hahaha that would be a stitch...:miff:
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 09:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
I should have included that Snowmobile Trails are only off limits IF:

1) It's between December 1st and March 31st AND there are at LEAST 3" of snow on the ground.

I don't condone pushing the 3" requirement though. We need to befriend the snowmobilers as another form of motorized recreation. It's only for 4 months.

Note: A CRC Road designated as a sonwmobile route is PRIMARILY a County Road,but, again in the spirit of good will, if it can be avoided please do so.

2) The trail is not normally gated to wheeled use and only opened in the winter for the snowmobilers use only.
So you are saying that taking that road was a legal thing to do....???
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Old May 23rd, 2007, 10:26 PM   #28
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If it wasn't posted closed to wheeled vehicles, gated, or otherwise posted as off-limits, I'd have to say it was legal. It all comes down to the Certificatin Map.

. . . but I'm not an attorney.

I've seen Seasonal Roads that are also designated snowmobile routes and orv routes all at once.

In this situation, I would think it's just good maners to let the sleds have their turn at it, not law (It is a road). There are plenty of other places to ride (at least around here) and we have use of them 3 times longer than they get to use them.
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Old June 5th, 2007, 10:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
Note: A CRC Road designated as a snowmobile route is PRIMARILY a County Road
CORRECTION!

I found the definition of Seasonal Road - NOT what I thought at all (not anyone I've ever spoken with about them)!


Looks like it's time to start working with CRAM (County Road Association of Michigan) to get something in place for Unimproved Roads!



STATE TRUNK LINE HIGHWAY SYSTEM (EXCERPT)
Act 51 of 1951

247.655a Seasonal county road system.


Sec. 5a.

(1) The board of county road commissioners of each county may establish a system of seasonal county roads, which may be part of either the county primary road system, the county local road system, or both systems. A board of county road commissioners in establishing a system of seasonal county roads, may declare a road under the jurisdiction of the board to not be open to public travel during the months of November through April, which road shall then not be open to public travel.

(6) A map shall be maintained and on display in the office of each board of county road commissioners which has established a seasonal county roads system which shall also inform the public of the dates the road or road shall not open to public travel.

(7) The board shall place and maintain signs on all roads designated as seasonal county roads, which signs shall describe the roads as seasonal county roads.

History: Add. 1981, Act 184, Imd. Eff. Dec. 23, 1981
Compiler's Notes: In the last sentence of subsection (2), the word “sytsem” at the end of the sentence should evidently read “system.”
Popular Name: McNitt Act
Popular Name: Michigan Transportation Fund Act
Admin Rule: R 247.651 et seq. of the Michigan Administrative Code.
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Old June 15th, 2007, 08:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
.........TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE :
(I'm not a real doctor, I just play one on TV)


..............CFA LANDS:

I have NO clue!
There simply aren't any near me to have ever needed to learn about them.
I would THINK that, since they are administered by the DNR, that the rules would be the same as for a State Forest.

Private Property:

2WD does NOT apply
Erosive condition does NOT apply
-BUT- Wetland issues still do


If anyone knows about CFA lands 'for sure', I'd like to learn!
(Dang letter sizes won't behave normally)
CFA (Commercial Forest Act) Lands are private property and are open to hunting and fishing only. No camping, tree cutting, etc. If it is open to vehicles then you must stay on areas the property owner approves. You should have permission if you are unsure. This is from the DNR website:

Lands listed in this program are open to the public for hunting, trapping and fishing. The CF lands are not public lands. These lands are private lands under the control of private owners, who through CF allow the public the privilege of hunting, trapping and fishing only. The CF lands are not posted or signed as Commercial Forests and may be fenced and/or gated. While permission to hunt, trap or fish on CF lands is not required, we recommend you notify the landowner of your intention to do so. It is a courtesy they will appreciate, and it will contribute to your own safety.


Although the general public has a right to hunt, trap and fish on these lands, the property is privately owned and subject to normal private property rights. Unless you have permission of the property owner, the right to hunt, trap or fish on the land does not extend to associated activities such as the following:

Littering

Camping

The cutting of shooting lanes, or the cutting or destruction of brush, trees or other plants for any purpose.

The use of nails, bolts, wire, tree steps or other materials or activities which harm, lessen or destroy the value of trees.

The construction of blinds or the construction or placement of other structures, except for the gathering of dead materials found on the ground.

Target-shooting or sighting-in firearms.

The use of ORV's or other vehicles on private property when prohibited by fencing or posting. If vehicles are allowed, care should be taken to avoid blocking access to roads or parking areas.

A person engaging in an activity not allowed by a property owner may be criminally or civilly liable, or both.


The law on operating an ORV on private property applies....the applicable excerpt from the law:

324.81133 Operation of ORV; prohibited acts.

Sec. 81133.

A person shall not operate an ORV:
..................(i) In or upon the lands of another without the written consent of the owner, owner's agent or lessee, when required by part 731. The operator of the vehicle is liable for damage to private property, including, but not limited to, damage to trees, shrubs, growing crops, or injury to living creatures or damage caused through vehicle operation in a manner so as to create erosive or other ecological damage to private property. The owner of the private property may recover from the person responsible nominal damages of not less than the amount of damage or injury. Failure to post private property or fence or otherwise enclose in a manner to exclude intruders or of the private property owner or other authorized person to personally communicate against trespass does not imply consent to ORV use.
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Old June 18th, 2007, 09:11 AM   #31
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Thanks!
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