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Old April 17th, 2007, 07:49 AM   #21
Lothos
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alright folks. Lets direct this to another approach. Global warming aside, are you against trying to make this world a cleaner place? Do you not believe we are polluting our environment? I watch Gore's movie and have read quite a bit of the counter arguments. In the end I think if nothing more was achieved, Gore's movie motivates people to think about possibly cleaning up the world we live in. Where's the harm in that?
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Old April 17th, 2007, 08:00 AM   #22
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alright folks. Lets direct this to another approach. Global warming aside, are you against trying to make this world a cleaner place? Do you not believe we are polluting our environment? I watch Gore's movie and have read quite a bit of the counter arguments. In the end I think if nothing more was achieved, Gore's movie motivates people to think about possibly cleaning up the world we live in. Where's the harm in that?
Pollution control is doable. It comes down to economics. If it is truly important, the market will provide the solution. However, the government has gotten so deeply involved that nobody knows what is required, how bad it is, how to fix it, or if it even needs to be fixed. Gore is a hypocritical moron that is doing whatever he can to put a positive spin on his stupidity so that he can remain in some form of elected office. He wouldn't survive in the real world, so he wants the rest of us to pay to support his dumb ass.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 08:00 AM   #23
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whoa... I never said that I agreed or disagreed with Gore. I personally am not a fan. I do find his movie very interesting. I think that this movie will sway a lot of people on this issue. Because of that I think it is a valid thing to watch and understand so that you will be able to argue your side with out coming off as an idiot.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 08:07 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler View Post
Pollution control is doable. It comes down to economics. If it is truly important, the market will provide the solution. However, the government has gotten so deeply involved that nobody knows what is required, how bad it is, how to fix it, or if it even needs to be fixed. Gore is a hypocritical moron that is doing whatever he can to put a positive spin on his stupidity so that he can remain in some form of elected office. He wouldn't survive in the real world, so he wants the rest of us to pay to support his dumb ass.
I highly doubt his position is to have us support his ass. Love or hate the guy, I truly believe he wholeheartedly believes in global warming and wants to convert people to his belief. In the end, I can't see it being a completely bad thing to motivate people to clean up the environment.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 08:13 AM   #25
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If he truly believes in curing this "global warming" disaster, then he will begin to live the way he is trying to convince others to live. His mega-mansion and his outrageous energy consumption sets the example, not his movies, not his face time on TV awards shows, not his words. He is a blatant hypocrite. He says one thing and does the opposite. It is ok for everyone else to save the planet, but not him. If he can convince the rest of the world to conserve energy, his energy cost will go down. The day he sells the super-mansion and moves into a truly environmentally friendly home is the day that I will take him and his beliefs seriously.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 08:28 AM   #26
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point taken. I'm of the same mindset as you towards him personally. I'm just glad the movie at least gives people pause to stop and think and possibly motivate them to do good.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 09:35 AM   #27
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Man made global warming is a complete farce.
Do you realize how insignificant we are in realtion to this planet.
Even if we kill yourselves in an all out nuclear war, this planet will survive.

Volcano's alone cause more damage to our environment than mankind could ever do.
If their is some kind of global warming going on, which I doubt, we have nothing to do with it.

Now all that being said, I have no problem with us trying to live cleaner or cleaning up some of the messes we have already done.
I would also love to stop importing oil from the middle east and watch that part of the world fall apart, since we are such evil bastards.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 02:07 PM   #28
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Pollution control is doable. It comes down to economics. If it is truly important, the market will provide the solution. ...

And if 2 jet liners are on a collision course with each other do you believe the invisible hand of the market will reach out and prevent the collision?

I must admit I sampled that one from Colbert.... The free market is not always the best because over time monopolies are built and sometimes must be torn down to keep competition thriving...
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Old April 17th, 2007, 02:22 PM   #29
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And if 2 jet liners are on a collision course with each other do you believe the invisible hand of the market will reach out and prevent the collision?

I must admit I sampled that one from Colbert.... The free market is not always the best because over time monopolies are built and sometimes must be torn down to keep competition thriving...
Your insight is truly inspiring. How does operator error involving two airplanes flying at each other even remotely relate to the unimpeded free market providing economic solutions to societal problems?

Sampled from Colbert? You mean you had no idea what he was talking about and still tossed it into a thread that was over your head. :tonka:

Monopolies are only created out of inefficient regulations or government subsidies that force the market to work in an inefficient and therefore uneconomic manner. In an unimpeded market, monopolies simply can not exist. If there is money to be made, firms will continue to enter the market until there is no longer a profit incentive. This is ruined by government interference.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 03:07 PM   #30
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Ok, I have to disagree there. In a truly capitalistic market with no government interjection monopolies are the end result over time. The givernment exists in a capitalistic market to provide a check against monopolies from forming to a degree.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 03:12 PM   #31
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I'm making an assumption and not reading it.....



You are full of shit.




I think I am pretty accurate.:tonka:


THAT IS GREAT
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Old April 17th, 2007, 03:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84Scrambler View Post
Your insight is truly inspiring. How does operator error involving two airplanes flying at each other even remotely relate to the unimpeded free market providing economic solutions to societal problems?

Sampled from Colbert? You mean you had no idea what he was talking about and still tossed it into a thread that was over your head. :tonka:

Monopolies are only created out of inefficient regulations or government subsidies that force the market to work in an inefficient and therefore uneconomic manner. In an unimpeded market, monopolies simply can not exist. If there is money to be made, firms will continue to enter the market until there is no longer a profit incentive. This is ruined by government interference.


Your narrow mindedness is amazing. Can you really look through a keyhole with both eyes?


The Airliner example is a very good example of where 2 corporations would not invest in safety and new technologies unless forced to invest by the government. The network of radar that currently covers our air space was built by the government and not by the kind folks at the airlines.


Having each airline builds its own radar would not work because it is expensive and does not directly lead to corporate airline profits. (AKA it does not move freight or people) Having a consortium of Airlines build the network would not likely be done because being a member of the consortium does not give a competitive advantage. Plus any willy nilly start up can under bid them in price by not paying into the consortium. Hence the government had to do it.


The free market would not want to prevent the collision of 2 jet liners. With corporate math they would write off the cost of jets, figure they could pay 3,000,000 for each person on board and still be ahead of the game. For say 200,000,000 dollars it is the cost of doing business. Every now and then you loose a plane.


There are areas in life where Business-to-Business competition will not result in the benefit for society. There must be checks on the free market to prevent it from getting out of control. For that we have governments. It is not perfect but then neither are people. Governments and business are only as good as the people running them. I am afraid that we need both and we must watch both of them like a hawk at all times.



Here is an example that I am sure you can understand:

Free markets at the gas pumps:
Free market says that if we can sell 126 oz of gas and charge for a full gallon I will have a competitive edge over that station across the street. Will people notice that they are being shorted by a Big Gulp of gas on every tank. Not likely. Then by how much can we cheat the customer without them knowing? Maybe 3, 5 or even 10 ounces per gallon? The incentive to cheat is greater than the incentive to not to cheat. In rural areas with fewer competing gas stations there is no incentive to be honest. You can be the biggest cheat with the least competition.


I do not know about you but I do not have the time to test each and every tank to make sure that I have a full 11 gallons of gas…. I have to rely on my government to make sure A pump will correctly meter a gallon of gas.


Now that the government as set both the size of the gallon and the measurement method for the Octane I can make informed decisions about my gas purchase. From here the free market can work… It doesn’t work by itself. It has to have a balance to keep it from getting out of control


Is it overly burdensome to have to have to certify that your pumps are accurate? No… It allows the free market to work because I the consumer can go to nearly any pump and buy a gallon of gas know that it is really is 1 gallon.


I am not going to argue that our government is fool proof… The Good Ole USA has made some huge blunders. But the free market needs some government regulation to work correctly and to stay in balance.


Now back on topic.


The free market is not going to clean up the environment. It will only do so if the governments make cleaning up cheaper then staying dirty.



The free market is always for making money… It does not care how the money is made, or from whom it is taken.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 05:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Your narrow mindedness is amazing. Can you really look through a keyhole with both eyes?


The Airliner example is a very good example of where 2 corporations would not invest in safety and new technologies unless forced to invest by the government. The network of radar that currently covers our air space was built by the government and not by the kind folks at the airlines.
Bullshit. Two airlines that refuse to invest in safety equipment and experience one catastrophe such as you are describing would put both companies out of business. They would cease to exist in the marketplace. No government regulations would be needed. The free market would see to it. Nobody would fly the two airlines, they would immediately either invest or cease to exist. Yes, the radar system was built at the request of the US government. However, it could have been built for much less, with a higher quality if built by and to the requirements of the private sector.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Having each airline builds its own radar would not work because it is expensive and does not directly lead to corporate airline profits. (AKA it does not move freight or people) Having a consortium of Airlines build the network would not likely be done because being a member of the consortium does not give a competitive advantage. Plus any willy nilly start up can under bid them in price by not paying into the consortium. Hence the government had to do it.
Companies form JV's all the time to address industry wide issues that benefit from the investment and involvement of everyone in the industry. In a world where the government does not interfere and screw up the market, airlines would invest in a radar system. It is called Risk Management. Identify the risks and implement a procedure for mitigating that risk in the most economic way possible. Being a member of a consortium may not provide a competitive advantage, but not being in one can be a severe competitive disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
The free market would not want to prevent the collision of 2 jet liners. With corporate math they would write off the cost of jets, figure they could pay 3,000,000 for each person on board and still be ahead of the game. For say 200,000,000 dollars it is the cost of doing business. Every now and then you loose a plane.
Again, the free market WOULD want to prevent this collision. One collision and the entire industry suffers. One collision and the two companies involved will suffer decreased ticket sales. Without taking steps to address the problems, the market will force them out of business.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
There are areas in life where Business-to-Business competition will not result in the benefit for society. There must be checks on the free market to prevent it from getting out of control. For that we have governments. It is not perfect but then neither are people. Governments and business are only as good as the people running them. I am afraid that we need both and we must watch both of them like a hawk at all times.
The free market economy, if allowed to run without the interference of government subsidies or regulation will always lead to the most economic use of all inputs into the market. However, this cannot be demonstrated due to the miles thick books of rules, regulations, and laws imposed by the government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Here is an example that I am sure you can understand:

Free markets at the gas pumps:
Free market says that if we can sell 126 oz of gas and charge for a full gallon I will have a competitive edge over that station across the street. Will people notice that they are being shorted by a Big Gulp of gas on every tank. Not likely. Then by how much can we cheat the customer without them knowing? Maybe 3, 5 or even 10 ounces per gallon? The incentive to cheat is greater than the incentive to not to cheat. In rural areas with fewer competing gas stations there is no incentive to be honest. You can be the biggest cheat with the least competition.
How do you know this does not happen now. Does that 12 oz. can of Coke really have 12 oz. in it? Does that gallon of milk really contain a full gallon? This is all a measure of risk vs. reward. Is the reward of shorting customers a few oz of product worth the market backlash if it is discovered? People cheat. It happens with and without government intervention. There will always be someone that checks on people in the market. There are consumer advocacy groups that do this now. As soon as the market determines that someone is cheating the system, they get kicked off the island. Look at Enron. I used to deal with them every day. They got caught cheating and the mechanisms that were in place in the credit covenants and the purchase/sales agreements forced them to declare bankruptcy. I personally wrote one of the first official letters that was sent to Enron declraing them to be in default of the contracts that were in place. Weeks later they no longer existed in the market. The market kicked them out. Simple. This did not require governmental interference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
I do not know about you but I do not have the time to test each and every tank to make sure that I have a full 11 gallons of gas…. I have to rely on my government to make sure A pump will correctly meter a gallon of gas.
You don't personally have to test it. There would be companies that are paid to do this for you. In fact, they would probably be funded by other gas stations to insure that no one is in fact cheating to gain an advantage over anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Now that the government as set both the size of the gallon and the measurement method for the Octane I can make informed decisions about my gas purchase. From here the free market can work… It doesn’t work by itself. It has to have a balance to keep it from getting out of control
This is exactly the problem. It can't work because of people that rely on the government to provide services that should be provided by the private sector, and in fact would be provided at a lower price. You are paying for the service already in the form of taxes. Why would you not want these costs to be lower?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Is it overly burdensome to have to have to certify that your pumps are accurate? No… It allows the free market to work because I the consumer can go to nearly any pump and buy a gallon of gas know that it is really is 1 gallon.
This is a marketing issue. Any properly run company would strive to provide outside verification that they are in fact providing the exact service for which the consumer is paying. Why do all these companies go through the ISO certifications? To prove that they are meeting the industry standards so that consumers are confident they are being properly treated in the market.


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Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
I am not going to argue that our government is fool proof… The Good Ole USA has made some huge blunders. But the free market needs some government regulation to work correctly and to stay in balance.
Again, I disagree that government intervention and regulation is capable of improving ANYTHING. If allowed to exist properly, the free market would work. However, there are the uneducated, social welfare touting, free rider mentality people (AKA Democrats) that refuse to stop making all these retarded rules and regulations. It is like the people that bitch and moan about so called Big Oil making billions of dollars in profit when in fact, they really aren't making a very good profit margin at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97xj View Post
Now back on topic.


The free market is not going to clean up the environment. It will only do so if the governments make cleaning up cheaper then staying dirty.





The free market is always for making money… It does not care how the money is made, or from whom it is taken.
Wrong. The free market is about making the best use of all available resources. It is about allocation. Unfortunately, this can never be put into practice, so it remains for the most part a very well thought out theory. Until the government again comes back under the control of the people instead of the independent monstrosity that it has become, we will continue to pay higher and higher taxes until the US economy collapses and must be rebuilt by whatever country takes us over.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 07:24 PM   #34
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Regarding global warming being predictable.
Someone please show me one model that can accurately show/explain what has happened previously. These are all theories to drive an agenda and keep the research dollars coming in.


BTW I want clean water and air too.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 07:46 PM   #35
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if Global warming is such a pressing issue, please explain to me why the $20 million "global climate change research facility" i just got done building in barrow AK was built 6 ft above sea level, and the next 4 buildings (80 million total) starting next year, will be built at 2-3 ft above sea level? these are all govt funded buildings. i see they are highly concerned about water rising.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 07:59 PM   #36
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Climatologists and meteorologists can't even tell you what the weather will be next week. How can they tell us what the weather has done for the past billion+ years. :tonka:
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Old April 17th, 2007, 08:46 PM   #37
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Climatologists and meteorologists can't even tell you what the weather will be next week. How can they tell us what the weather has done for the past billion+ years. :tonka:

POINT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old April 17th, 2007, 09:12 PM   #38
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From another post, but fits here too:

I think this graph says alot:



Either Pirates were protecting the environment and their "mysterious" disappearance (probably a plot by the Republicans) has caused this "global warming"

or

Global warming is not only killing Polar bears, but worse yet Pirates.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 10:07 PM   #39
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this chart does say alot...we need more pirates AAAAARRRRGG!!!
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Old April 18th, 2007, 06:21 AM   #40
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if Global warming is such a pressing issue, please explain to me why the $20 million "global climate change research facility" i just got done building in barrow AK was built 6 ft above sea level, and the next 4 buildings (80 million total) starting next year, will be built at 2-3 ft above sea level? these are all govt funded buildings. i see they are highly concerned about water rising.
Um, the global warming folks think sea levels will rise by 20 feet. How is 3-6 feet sufficient?


Question, do you guys believe in global warming ( man made or otherwise in general ) as opposed to man-made global warming?
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