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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #41
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Lets to back to the picture you posted of Jesus knocking on a door. Being a gentleman, he neither forces your belief or forces your obedience. If you did follow Jesus, and so did the rest of creation, perhaps the world WOULD be a different place, without all the trouble you mentioned. If God corrected every problem ever made, then why would he ever have given us free will? What you are suggesting is that God simply be a puppet master. There is no real love and no real relationship with puppets. It is pretty much where choice (regardless of what kind) is a necessary componant to real life.
Wouldn't you think God would protect his people from the sinners? Or is god expecting his people to overcome all the sinners in the world, this removing all sense of anything evil?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:03 PM   #42
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Don't forget about all the people god killed in the bible! He killed everything from little babys,(samuel 12:14), burned people to death because he was bored(kings 1:10), and don't forget (numbers ??:?? don't remember) when god slaughtered a "sinner" for picking up sticks on sunday!!!!!!!!


God sure isn't as strict as he used to be :tonka:
Not to be blunt, but maybe he is. Things like HIV, Murder, pain, suffering, K-fed.

They are all God's megaphone to a sleeping world!
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:05 PM   #43
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All I know, is I was searching google for the verse when god kills the guy for picking up sticks. My wireless network went out. I'm guessing it was god. But I tricked him, I just unplugged my cable modem, and It reloaded!
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:06 PM   #44
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Wouldn't you think God would protect his people from the sinners? Or is god expecting his people to overcome all the sinners in the world, this removing all sense of anything evil?
Believe it not not, the opposite is true. For those that follow God's Kingdom, he promises no safety whatsoever. We are promised food and shelter, God's wisdom, strength, etc, but that is about it. God calls us to lay down our lives, to work hard, to press on through struggles of all kinds.

God is expecting us to overcome trouble, not to battle evil doers per-se, but to advance his Kingdom.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:07 PM   #45
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But I tricked him, I just unplugged my cable modem, and It reloaded!
just don't start picking up sticks, you'll prolly be alright.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #46
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found it

15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.


:tonka: And to think I pick up sticks every sunday that it isn't raining.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:09 PM   #47
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Not to be blunt, but maybe he is. Things like HIV, Murder, pain, suffering, K-fed.

They are all God's megaphone to a sleeping world!
actually, that makes sense. Except if it was the case, they are aimless disasters now, and not pointed at the non believers alone.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 06:13 PM   #48
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Believe it not not, the opposite is true. For those that follow God's Kingdom, he promises no safety whatsoever. We are promised food and shelter, God's wisdom, strength, etc, but that is about it. God calls us to lay down our lives, to work hard, to press on through struggles of all kinds.

God is expecting us to overcome trouble, not to battle evil doers per-se, but to advance his Kingdom.
need I mention the MILLIONS of people who starve to death yearly, as well as the tens of millions who are homeless?
Does this mean the people who starve to death are sinners because if they believed, god would surely fill their bellys
Unkept promises I tell ya.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 09:16 PM   #49
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I may have wrongfully spoken, so let me clarify the whole hunger issue:




John 6: "Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (I think this is a metaphor though)

Matthew 4: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." (jesus experienced real hunger)

Philipians 4: "I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength."

Proverbs 10: "The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry"

Matthew 255: Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' " (Jesus encouraged taking care of those less fortunate)

Revelation 7: "16Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst"



Moral of the story, those who are righteous (those who obey God) will never starve, might be hungry, but never starve. In due time, no one will hunger or thirst.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 09:32 PM   #50
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i dont believe.
i tryed.
went to church 1/2 my life untill i could nolonger fake it for the sake of loved ones.
explored other religons.
found the same problem.

the problem for me is there is no feeling of a need for there to be something more when i die, or a need for this life to mean something more than just living now.
i was told once by a friend that if i came closer to death my opinion would change, but with my job i have had some really close calls and a few "i dont think im going to live through this" exp. and nothing changed for me.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 09:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
found it

15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.


:tonka: And to think I pick up sticks every sunday that it isn't raining.
I would have to research that particular event to respond, but I will say that you have to have a knowledge of the Israelites, the circumstances at that time, etc. Context adds a lot.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 10:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
found it

15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.


:tonka: And to think I pick up sticks every sunday that it isn't raining.
This was also the old testament. People basically payed for their own sins. New Testament Jesus died for our sins, therefore he payed for them.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 10:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
I may have wrongfully spoken, so let me clarify the whole hunger issue:




John 6: "Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (I think this is a metaphor though)

Matthew 4: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." (jesus experienced real hunger)

Philipians 4: "I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength."

Proverbs 10: "The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry"

Matthew 255: Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' " (Jesus encouraged taking care of those less fortunate)

Revelation 7: "16Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst"



Moral of the story, those who are righteous (those who obey God) will never starve, might be hungry, but never starve. In due time, no one will hunger or thirst.

I understand now what you were getting at. The one problem I have, is how can scriptures that were written predict the future, as the lord says people who follow him will never be hungry. Yet he could not predict the negativity that originated from Adam eating the apple.

I see a lot of promises, and all have the results of "if you" worship him, everything will be good. If he is truly the creator, why would he leave open the ability of having other religions? This world is now in a very large religious war.

If the lord could make promises to everyone about what would happen for eternity, why wouldn't he choose to make a perfect world?

Or is the whole starvation/always having food referring to your soul in heaven?

I just don't understand how the almighty would choose to make this world how it is now. That is why I cannot buy the thought of this universe being created by a superior power.

I know, I will go get a slave, and I will have them figure it out. :tonka:

x o dus 21'
2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

5 "But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' 6 then his master must take him before the judges. [f] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [g] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.



You're a smart man Dave, and the more I converse with you, the more smarts I gain :) I find the bible extremely interesting.

and I know bio, that my slavery passage is from the OT.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 11:15 PM   #54
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Ayn Rand never goes over to well here.

It's just to hard for some to wrap their minds around "A is A'.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 12:47 AM   #55
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i dunno i really just think everything happens for a reason and theres is nothing you can do about it. if it was meant to be its meant to be
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Old March 27th, 2007, 07:48 AM   #56
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CC... maybe you should read the New Testament :) as everything you have quoted so far is the Old Testament.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 07:50 AM   #57
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CC... maybe you should read the New Testament :) as everything you have quoted so far is the Old Testament.
were talking about the bible.


So now I am limited to what part of the mystical world I can quote?

Ok, tell me what part of your propaganda I can use when I argue with you.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 07:58 AM   #58
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were talking about the bible.


So now I am limited to what part of the mystical world I can quote?

Ok, tell me what part of your propaganda I can use when I argue with you.
True it is the Bible however there is a big change from the Old Testament to the new. Old Testament you pay for your own sins, in the New Jesus died on the cross for your sins.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 08:00 AM   #59
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Ok, so the old testament means nothing now. ok, got it.

I can't wait for the 3rd testament to be released, so then I can quote the new one, and you will get mad because thats an old version. :tonka:

And god punished me this morning. Either he made both driver side tires blow out of my truck, or I ran something over. Not sure which.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 09:00 AM   #60
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I understand now what you were getting at. The one problem I have, is how can scriptures that were written predict the future, as the lord says people who follow him will never be hungry. Yet he could not predict the negativity that originated from Adam eating the apple.

I see a lot of promises, and all have the results of "if you" worship him, everything will be good. If he is truly the creator, why would he leave open the ability of having other religions? This world is now in a very large religious war.

If the lord could make promises to everyone about what would happen for eternity, why wouldn't he choose to make a perfect world?

Or is the whole starvation/always having food referring to your soul in heaven?

I just don't understand how the almighty would choose to make this world how it is now. That is why I cannot buy the thought of this universe being created by a superior power.

I know, I will go get a slave, and I will have them figure it out. :tonka:

x o dus 21'
2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

5 "But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' 6 then his master must take him before the judges. [f] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [g] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.



You're a smart man Dave, and the more I converse with you, the more smarts I gain :) I find the bible extremely interesting.

and I know bio, that my slavery passage is from the OT.
Not all of God's promises are if/then. The biggest one is: If you believe, you will have eternal life. But here are others that are not: I will never leave you or forsake you. Ask for wisdom, it will be given to you. and so on.

Great question on the other religions thing. Here is a thought: Can we know truth unless we also know untruth? Can we know good unless we also know evil? The only thing that solidifies truth is the presence of untruth. Mankind is the one who created alternate objects of worship, and like you said, he allowed it. I am thinking back to the exodus of the Israelites. Moses lead God's people out of slavery in Egypt, on the way to the promised land. They wandered in the desert for YEARS because they were still disobedient to God. While Moses was trying to get the 10 commands, they went nuts and created a golden calf and worshiped it. God gives us that choice, we can choose him, or we can slap him in the face. This is again what allows true love and relationsihp, choice. When we truely seek him, we find him. But if we choose to rot in our sins, that is our choice, both now and for eternity.

Believe me, a perfect world WILL happen, the new heavens and the new earth (eternity will be new, things will not be the same as they are now, true restoration is in heaven).

What about the majesty of Earth that you see on that discovery channel program, does such a thing communicate to you that no such creator exists? The incredibly complexities of the smallest of things, the stars in the sky. These items God made so we would be in awe of him, and that we would give him credit and that HE would be the object of our worship, not ourselves, not items we make with our hands, nor the created world itself.

Slavery is a complex issue, but it is not then what we think it is now. Instead of trying to relay this point, I will let someone else: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html I did not read the whole thing, but it seemed good.

I find the bible interesting too. If God is not who he says, then I can die in peace knowing I tried to figure him out. And if he does exist, then then I can die in peace knowing I will be with him. Well its time to wipe, I better get going.
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