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Old March 26th, 2007, 02:38 PM   #21
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but born into sin, instead of born without.
and born with belly buttons, instead of born without
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Old March 26th, 2007, 02:39 PM   #22
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How would God NOT have the power over everything? What.. because bad things happen to good people, that means God has no power? If I were you, I would agrue against God's character, not his power. Believe me, his power is not an issue.

Just read the end time prophesies, God is gonna kick some serious devil hiney, but in due time.

He does not have the power to make you believe in him... even with scriptures etc... it is one's choice to believe.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 02:40 PM   #23
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He does not have the power to make you believe in him... even with scriptures etc... it is one's choice to believe.
I disagree, I think God can do EVERYTHING, look at the vast universe and tell me that he in unable.

I think the disctinction here is that he CHOOSES not to force us to believe, instead he stands at the door and knocks.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 02:47 PM   #24
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Ok, according to the scriptures
This is what gets me. The scriptures. There is a book known as the bible that that was written a long time ago. Now there are numerous copies. Way back when, they did not have priniting presses, so the scriptures were hand copied (by monks maybe) so how do we know that what the bible says, is what the bible said when it was first written. There easily could have been a glue sniffing monk who copied everything wrong, and that copy became the master copy that all of the copies today came from. You take someones word that the bible is true, and that person took someone's word that it is true, and so on. The only reason you think that it is true, is because someone told you? If I told you that I was the bastard child of Bill Clinton and Jennifer Granholm, you would laugh becuase I have no facts to back it up and you wouldn't believe me. So why beleive this?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #25
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How did god communicate with adam and eve? Was it with language? how come the cavemen didn't communicate with a spoken language?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:02 PM   #26
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Thats why I used the phrase "according to the scriptures" because I am not going to pre-suppose your faith in God's ability to write a book.

The debate of the validity of the Bible is an entirely different topic, one which I would not shy away from, but would be hesistant to comment on this one and derail.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:09 PM   #27
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If god rules everything, and made everything, why would he make the world, and the solar system, and HIV, and cancer, and murderers and other things? And why would he want millions of people to suffer? Seems to me he should of made earth just for him, and some hot chicks to live on. He could of ruled everything, and made ferrari's and shit.

Why would he make such a horrible place for millions upon millions of people?

Or is he so fricken supreme, and needs to feel that way, that he wanted followers, and people to bow to him, and worship him, and continue to build his horse higher?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:12 PM   #28
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Wow.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #29
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Thats why I used the phrase "according to the scriptures" because I am not going to pre-suppose your faith in God's ability to write a book.

The debate of the validity of the Bible is an entirely different topic, one which I would not shy away from, but would be hesistant to comment on this one and derail.
True. I didn't mean to hijack.

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If god rules everything, and made everything, why would he make the world, and the solar system, and HIV, and cancer, and murderers and other things? And why would he want millions of people to suffer? Seems to me he should of made earth just for him, and some hot chicks to live on. He could of ruled everything, and made ferrari's and shit.

Why would he make such a horrible place for millions upon millions of people?

Or is he so fricken supreme, and needs to feel that way, that he wanted followers, and people to bow to him, and worship him, and continue to build his horse higher?
In public safety, I am sure that BDR, Brandonfiremedic, Mongo, Firemedicdave, can agree, that the things that you experience do one of two things:

1. Push you closer to God, for the strength to make it through tradgedy.
2. Push you away because you find yourself asking "If God is so great, why did that 2 year old just die? What is the purpose of cutting his life short, and putting the family through the hell that is the loss of a child?"

Unfortunatly, I am the latter, and no matter what I read, who I talk to, I can't get over it. I will also say, that I am not nearly as educated as I would like to be on religion.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:56 PM   #30
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How did god communicate with adam and eve? Was it with language? how come the cavemen didn't communicate with a spoken language?
Gen 3:8 "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day..."

Gen 2:15-17 "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.' "

There are the spots where it said that God walked the garden, and where God specifically told Adam not to eat the fruit (before Eve was even created).

I would assume that it was spoken language, since the quote is "the Lord commanded" and later, "the Lord said". So to me, that is speaking. Which language, I have no idea. When God created Adam, he created him in an adult state, so he must have been created with the ability to understand the manor in which God spoke.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:58 PM   #31
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If god rules everything, and made everything, why would he make the world, and the solar system, and HIV, and cancer, and murderers and other things? And why would he want millions of people to suffer? Seems to me he should of made earth just for him, and some hot chicks to live on. He could of ruled everything, and made ferrari's and shit.

Why would he make such a horrible place for millions upon millions of people?

Or is he so fricken supreme, and needs to feel that way, that he wanted followers, and people to bow to him, and worship him, and continue to build his horse higher?
Did you see HIV in the garden? What God made was perfect, and what man did was sin. When sin entered the world, things changed. Instead of the ground working with Adam, it now worked against him, things changed. The world was imperfect, wonderful as we see on discovery channel, but imperfect. With that comes suffering. Sin = death. Death = bad. So bad things happen as a direct result of the sin of mankind.

I think God chose other routes besides making ferraris to communicate his love and patience with us.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:06 PM   #32
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Did you see HIV in the garden? What God made was perfect, and what man did was sin. When sin entered the world, things changed. Instead of the ground working with Adam, it now worked against him, things changed. The world was imperfect, wonderful as we see on discovery channel, but imperfect. With that comes suffering. Sin = death. Death = bad. So bad things happen as a direct result of the sin of mankind.

I think God chose other routes besides making ferraris to communicate his love and patience with us.
If god had enough knowledge to make the universe, I think he could see 2000 years into the future and see how horrible things would be.

And why hasn't he came back to fix things? Maybe he left to start over in another galaxy, since he failed miserably.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:12 PM   #33
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If god had enough knowledge to make the universe, I think he could see 2000 years into the future and see how horrible things would be.

And why hasn't he came back to fix things? Maybe he left to start over in another galaxy, since he failed miserably.
I would agree that he would have the ability to see how things would progress, but why he let it happen that way is a bit complex. The way I understand it is that if God created us to love us, true love cannot exist without choice. If we were not able to choose to accept & reciprocate, then we would be robots, and it would not be real relationship. So eventhough God may have known we would screw up, it does not change the nature of what he was after in creating us. Nor does it change what he did about OUR screw up. God did not leave us hanging eventhough we sinned. Sure, he gave us natural consequences, but he provided a way out, in Christ.

He has not come back because there is work to do on our part. There are specific end time prophesies that have yet to occur, but after they do, Jesus is coming back, and he is kicking ass.

The mandate he has given to his followers is to spread the gospel to all nations. All nations have not been reached, and other key things have not happened in this world. But when they do, look out.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:19 PM   #34
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Ok, so let me get this straight.

God made the world, made the flowers, made mars, made the stars, made goldfish, and ALL other good things.

But the evil people made all things bad by sinning?

And God is wanting us to fix it? Sounds like the world is a sick little sandbox for him to play with his people, and watch suffering, death, and hes probably throwing dice with his boys while they gamble on what natural disaster will punish the sinners.

The whole god is waiting thing is pretty laughable. If he is really the almighty, then where is your god now?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:31 PM   #35
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Mankind did not made a goldfish evil, but mankind changed the rules of engagement. No longer was childbirth simple and carefree for the woman, no longer was working the field easy for the man. Those benefits only existed in perfection. And sin has run rampant. Why does a man murder and dismember his wife? Because he is a sinner.

God is not "waiting for us to fix it", but for those who combat the sin nature, there is a chance to make things better. And in the mean time, God is there to help in this life, and in the life to come. He has not left us hanging, he made us, he loves us, he helps us, and he has provided eternal life where there is no pain, no sin, no death. Our experience now is temporary.

God is working behind the scenes, that is where he is. Instead of dwelling in a building, he chooses to dwell in the heart of mankind, via the Holy Spirit. God has never gone back on his word, nor will he. When he says he is there, he is, when he says he is coming back, he will. We are talking about the Kingdom of God, if he chooses to hold back his hand of justice, then who are you to tell him what to do? He is the King, and he rules as he pleases. He has acted, and he has spoken, look at what he has done, and you will see if he is a joker, an almight dice roler, or the actual King of all.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:41 PM   #36
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Mankind did not made a goldfish evil, but mankind changed the rules of engagement. No longer was childbirth simple and carefree for the woman, no longer was working the field easy for the man. Those benefits only existed in perfection. And sin has run rampant. Why does a man murder and dismember his wife? Because he is a sinner.

God is not "waiting for us to fix it", but for those who combat the sin nature, there is a chance to make things better. And in the mean time, God is there to help in this life, and in the life to come. He has not left us hanging, he made us, he loves us, he helps us, and he has provided eternal life where there is no pain, no sin, no death. Our experience now is temporary.

God is working behind the scenes, that is where he is. Instead of dwelling in a building, he chooses to dwell in the heart of mankind, via the Holy Spirit. God has never gone back on his word, nor will he. When he says he is there, he is, when he says he is coming back, he will. We are talking about the Kingdom of God, if he chooses to hold back his hand of justice, then who are you to tell him what to do? He is the King, and he rules as he pleases. He has acted, and he has spoken, look at what he has done, and you will see if he is a joker, an almight dice roler, or the actual King of all.
If he is working behind the scenes, he is doing a pretty pathetic job. How many years of murder, torcher, and rape has to go on before he relizes that the world he built cannot fix itself? How many more people will be slaughtered, butchered, torchered, and mutilated before he says "I should probably show up on earth and fix these little problems" You think he would at least sneak over here and put an end to the hurricanes, tsunamis, and earthquakes that devastate millions.

Or maybe he could at least protect the people worshiping him in his temple from mother nature:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...3075847203T653

If he is the all knowing, he surely must be witnessing this disaster he has created. or is he happy as long as the money's flowing to his temples?


Or maybe we are just experiencing evolution :)
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:44 PM   #37
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Alright, I'm back from actually working today. Time to throw my lot in here.

In response to the above. Its interesting that you believe that everything in the world is terrible and we are all suffering. Sounds like you have the ability to discern right from wrong. Many argue that, this ability alone shows that there is a moral standard that has been set forth for all men. Where did this standard come from and who created it? Its possible that it could be nature and basic instincts, but then what do you so with issues of love or sacrifice that you don't see elsewhere in the natural world.

Back to God though, IF he created the universe and everything in it (I know thats a big IF, but for arguements sake we need to start somewhere), then he has AUTHORITY over creation. To be able to speak into existence things like matter and time requries absolute power and authority.

Once creation was made, man was made last and specificaly was made to be in a RELATIONSHIP with God, then comes the issue of Love. Can you truly have a functioning relationship without true love? More specifically, can you have true love without choice?

For man to truly love God and be in a fullfilling relationship with him, he must be able to chose other things. We all know the story of Satan and how he was an angel created by God that chose to rebel against God because he wanted to be as powerful as God. He took a large number of angels with him and they live to this day in opposition to God's kingdom! And the Bible is very clear that this oppostition will end in an all out war that destroys the forces of evil.

So, God didn't create evil per say, but he did permit it to begin.

Now, to the issue of power over evil. There are several examples in the bible (old and new testament) where demons and evil forces are subjegated to God. A specific example is when Jesus sails across from Galilee and is met on the shore by a demon possesed man. The man says to Jesus " why have you come, please do not destroy us". Jesus says to the man, what is your name. The demon answers and says "legion, because we are many demons". Jesus then casts the demons into a herd of pigs (kind of crazy, but it shows his authority over evil). In the old testament, it says in Job that God "allows" satan to come before him and speak. Then God "allows" satan to aflict Job.

So, if you're going to reference the Bible, there is no question to whether God has authority and power over Satan and demons.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:54 PM   #38
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If he is working behind the scenes, he is doing a pretty pathetic job. How many years of murder, torcher, and rape has to go on before he relizes that the world he built cannot fix itself? How many more people will be slaughtered, butchered, torchered, and mutilated before he says "I should probably show up on earth and fix these little problems" You think he would at least sneak over here and put an end to the hurricanes, tsunamis, and earthquakes that devastate millions.

Or maybe he could at least protect the people worshiping him in his temple from mother nature:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...3075847203T653

If he is the all knowing, he surely must be witnessing this disaster he has created. or is he happy as long as the money's flowing to his temples?


Or maybe we are just experiencing evolution :)
Lets to back to the picture you posted of Jesus knocking on a door. Being a gentleman, he neither forces your belief or forces your obedience. If you did follow Jesus, and so did the rest of creation, perhaps the world WOULD be a different place, without all the trouble you mentioned. If God corrected every problem ever made, then why would he ever have given us free will? What you are suggesting is that God simply be a puppet master. There is no real love and no real relationship with puppets. It is pretty much where choice (regardless of what kind) is a necessary componant to real life.

This morning my daugher got the barret out of her hair and had it in her mouth (shame on us for leaving it in her hair), and probably would have choked if I did not discover it. That story was going to go one of two directions, and dead baby or a lively one. My wife just called me to let me hear her babbling as they were on a walk. I think God made me check on her at that exact time, and I think he was working behind the scenes. This may seem like a little thing, but it was a big thing to me. You see, nobody SEES God physically working because he is not PHYSICALLY present. He is present in Spirit, so you will not see his actions like you see the ramifications of sin. Sin is in your face, not outside your door. I think you can see some of God's work physically though, but you gotta be on the look out for it. There ARE people doing good in this world, perhaps you can not be so selective in deciding what you focus on.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:56 PM   #39
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He does not have the power to make you believe in him... even with scriptures etc... it is one's choice to believe.
Not true. He appears to people in the old testament that have never uttered his name before and they immediately believe. I would to if I saw God.

In the new testament, people just saw Jesus and believed. I don't know if it is so much an issue of God making people believe or people be unable to not believe once they experience God.

Also, God hardens peoples hard so they don't believe. God hardens Pharoahs heart in the old testament so that he doesn't listen to Moses.

God has absolute authority according to scriptures.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:58 PM   #40
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Don't forget about all the people god killed in the bible! He killed everything from little babys,(samuel 12:14), burned people to death because he was bored(kings 1:10), and don't forget (numbers ??:?? don't remember) when god slaughtered a "sinner" for picking up sticks on sunday!!!!!!!!


God sure isn't as strict as he used to be :tonka:
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