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Old February 28th, 2007, 10:08 PM   #81
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I just see the whole "recruitment" thing as being a way for them to justify it to themselves. If they have so much faith in their religion, why can't that be good enough for them? Why do they think they have to bring everybody else into it?

I think they have their own doubts and this way they can make sure everyone around them believes what they believe and it makes them feel better.
No. The '"recruitment" thing' come from the Bible. According to some of the Gospels Jesus' final instruction was to go and teach other about him.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 10:12 AM   #82
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To Quote Dr. Seuss......... Bibble Babble..........

To much reading for me to keep up.

And people wonder why some people do not go to Church?

Bibble Babble.........

It's not that hard either you belive or you do not. Pushing your point of view hard is only going to make people walk away or just agree and roll there eyes when they walk away.
Miffy, I know you are a woman of faith, and its unfortunate that you are working against the message of Christ in this manner. Many, including myself, want to think our way through some of these challenging items of the faith. If you are comfortable where you are at, great. But don't look down on others because we want our minds to explore truth. The Apostle Paul REASONED with people in every town he went to. He went into the synagages and explained reasons why Jesus was the Lord, gave them reasons to believe that Jesus rose from the dead, reasons to believe that he was indeed the Messiah. He did this every day, talking to people reasoning with them about Jesus. If there are not reaons to believe... then why believe? The fact of the matter is that there ARE real reasons to take the resurrection of Jesus seriously. And beyond that, to then grant faith that he is who he claimed, and that he did what was recorded by eye witnesses.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 12:41 PM   #83
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Actually his first two evidences were:

1. The Bible is historical documentation of actual people & actual events
(also non-biblical evidence by historians of that day).

2. The Bible’s accounts of Jesus Resurrection MEETS historian’s standards for historicity. (corroborating documents, no conflicting evidence, appropriate span of time between event and written account; original eye witnesses told with their own mouths, first hand accounts of the events; no single written denial from ANYONE about Christ’s resurrection, not a single denial).



AND... he said he was going to get into evidence outside of the Bible later. You must have missed that.



EDIT: I gotta give you credit for listening, you rock. But I think you did not listen very clear. Not trying to be mean, but you sure missed a lot if you only heard the word Bible then turned a deaf year.

I was just over simplifying.

There seems to be a lot of reasoning going on in the arguments you posted above, but it is all based on a lot of what if's and why would they's. I'm not saying none of this happened, it may have, anything is possible. Since I wasn't there I don't know. That's my point, no one alive today KNOWS. They believe, they have faith that it's true, but they don't know.

I'd like to believe it's all real, I'd also like to believe that aliens are real. You will find eye witnesses to both. It doesn't mean it is or is not true, I haven't seen it, I don't know either way. I think that's what mike was trying say.

I'll end with an Eddie Brickell lyric......

"I'm not aware of too many things,
I know what I know
If you know what I mean.

Philosphy is a walk on the slippery rocks,
Religion is a lie in the fall."

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Old March 1st, 2007, 12:53 PM   #84
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Since I wasn't there I don't know.
what do you say to this?

Some folks deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, saying that “since none of us were there, no one can really say what happened 2000 years ago”. While there is some truth to that statement, it is an illogical argument against something having been documented in history. Here’s why. None of us were around when George Washington was President, so technically, we can’t “prove” he was President, however, if there is enough historical documentation attesting to his Presidency and corroborated historically by enough eyewitnesses, combined with absolutely no documented claims denying these facts, logic demands we accept his Presidency as historically true. To deny this would be illogical and unscientific.

Do you believe George Washington was president eventhough you were not alive in his day? I am assuming yes, so what is the difference? Length of time?
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Old March 1st, 2007, 01:03 PM   #85
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what do you say to this?

Some folks deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, saying that “since none of us were there, no one can really say what happened 2000 years ago”. While there is some truth to that statement, it is an illogical argument against something having been documented in history. Here’s why. None of us were around when George Washington was President, so technically, we can’t “prove” he was President, however, if there is enough historical documentation attesting to his Presidency and corroborated historically by enough eyewitnesses, combined with absolutely no documented claims denying these facts, logic demands we accept his Presidency as historically true. To deny this would be illogical and unscientific.

Do you believe George Washington was president eventhough you were not alive in his day? I am assuming yes, so what is the difference? Length of time?
It's no different. I believe he was president. I don't know he was.

First hand knowledge is knowing. Everything else is believing.

It isn't unscientific. Science is based on observation, i.e. first hand knowledge.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 01:05 PM   #86
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and someone's written eye witness account is useless to you?
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Old March 1st, 2007, 02:00 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
and someone's written eye witness account is useless to you?

Not useless, but second rate compared to personal knowledge.

Do you believe things because other people tell you they are true in writing? I hope not, this web site would be very confusing in that case.

Having it written down doesn't make it factual.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 03:13 PM   #88
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Not useless, but second rate compared to personal knowledge.

Do you believe things because other people tell you they are true in writing? I hope not, this web site would be very confusing in that case.

Having it written down doesn't make it factual.
You bring up a good point, and NO, I do NOT believe anything simply for the fact that someone wrote it. I DO, however, take pesonal written testimony from long ago if there is GOOD REASON to do so. The disciples lost their lives for what they personally experienced, you better believe they have my attention. There is ZERO (read, NO) conflicting evidence from ANY source about the resurrection of Jesus. Why is that!? If there was any degree of controversy over whether or not it happened, it would be written. There are govenmental records of Jesus' death, and non-believing historians who documented the uprising. If Jesus did not raise from the dead, why was NO ONE writing about it?

Similarly, if George Washington was not actually the president, folks would be speaking out, writing about how he is a poser, etc. But no one did, it was never a controversial issue because everyone knew he was the president. Similarly, no one fought aganst the story of Jesus re-appearing because it was evident that it happened, and I would say that it's likely that people in power were looking to see if it were true.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 03:25 PM   #89
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You bring up a good point, and NO, I do NOT believe anything simply for the fact that someone wrote it. I DO, however, take pesonal written testimony from long ago if there is GOOD REASON to do so. The disciples lost their lives for what they personally experienced, you better believe they have my attention. There is ZERO (read, NO) conflicting evidence from ANY source about the resurrection of Jesus. Why is that!? If there was any degree of controversy over whether or not it happened, it would be written. There are govenmental records of Jesus' death, and non-believing historians who documented the uprising. If Jesus did not raise from the dead, why was NO ONE writing about it?

Similarly, if George Washington was not actually the president, folks would be speaking out, writing about how he is a poser, etc. But no one did, it was never a controversial issue because everyone knew he was the president. Similarly, no one fought aganst the story of Jesus re-appearing because it was evident that it happened, and I would say that it's likely that people in power were looking to see if it were true.
I'll never deny that your faith is based on a solid foundation of accepted history. I hope it turns out that you're right.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 03:46 PM   #90
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All I want to know is if Dave can admit there is possible alien life in the cosmos. And what you would think if we found other life out there. I will admit to you I am not from this planet.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 03:58 PM   #91
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All I want to know is if Dave can admit there is possible alien life in the cosmos. And what you would think if we found other life out there. I will admit to you I am not from this planet.
I can tell you what I think. I think we would be foolish to think we are the only life in a never ending universe. God created all things and obviously could have created something somewhere else. If you dont believe in god than we are here on this earth so why cant life be somewhere else? I am not saying it has to be aliens flying to other planets. But if you look at it, we are aliens flying to other planets.

I have a feeling this topic is going to change. Mabye we should start another thread for other life in the universe.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 05:02 PM   #92
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All I want to know is if Dave can admit there is possible alien life in the cosmos.
Possible, yes. Likely, NO. From a biblical point of view, any other possible life is subject to mankind's dominion just like all life on Earth. It is mankind's duty to till the garden and name/care for the animals. If there is life in another part of the universe, it is likely insignificant, and it would not be equivalent to Earth. God made things pretty clear and described his prized creation in detail, separating waters above from below, forming something out of chatoic darkness, etc. His focus on the whole universe was Earth, and his focus in all the Earth is Jesus. God made all the planets and stars for mankind to see and then give glory to him. When we look at the sky at night (up north of course), we ought to be jaw drops and give Jesus some mad props!



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Old March 1st, 2007, 05:43 PM   #93
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Well if/when we do find other life. I want to know who is going to be the first to attempt to help our new found neighbors realize who created them.:tonka:
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Old March 1st, 2007, 07:13 PM   #94
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That picture of Jesus above is a good example of everything I am talking about. He would not even of looked like that. He would have looked nothing like any church in america has him looking like. He wouldnt have blue eyes either. He would have looked like someone from the middle east but dirtier.

But what do I know I wasnt even there.
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Old March 1st, 2007, 07:21 PM   #95
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Possible, yes. Likely, NO. From a biblical point of view, any other possible life is subject to mankind's dominion just like all life on Earth. It is mankind's duty to till the garden and name/care for the animals. If there is life in another part of the universe, it is likely insignificant, and it would not be equivalent to Earth. God made things pretty clear and described his prized creation in detail, separating waters above from below, forming something out of chatoic darkness, etc. His focus on the whole universe was Earth, and his focus in all the Earth is Jesus. God made all the planets and stars for mankind to see and then give glory to him. When we look at the sky at night (up north of course), we ought to be jaw drops and give Jesus some mad props!



Actually, I believe it is very likely that there is life on other planets. When God created man, it is said that we were formed in HIS image, and that seems to insinuate that before earth, He had created other worlds and other beings, though not in His image. Making this the "special" planet... Now I don't think they're coming to earth and probing us, but I know that they're watching this earth, waiting for the final conflict between good and evil.
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 08:35 AM   #96
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I think we will most likely find life on other planets (or moons) in this solar system in our life time. Europa is a prime candidate. The building blocks of life, organic compounds, are sprinkled all through the universe. It could turn out to be that life on earth didn't start on earth at all, only flourished here after coming here from somewhere else. The earth is young compared to the life of the universe and has been pelted with foreign objects from the universe for all of it’s existence. There is no reason to think those objects couldn't have contained organisms that started life here. Hell the whole planet is made from the compounds of other stars that existed before the sun was here. The sun is a second generation star.

It's human nature to think everything revolves around us. We used to believe the earth was the center of the universe. It isn't and neither are we.

We are a speck on a speck on a speck..... It's awfully conceded of humans to think they are made in the likeness of God and here to reign over all of existence. We need to get over ourselves, we are not that important in the big picture of the universe.

Oh almost forgot the answer to life the universe and everything is 42.

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Old March 2nd, 2007, 11:12 AM   #97
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That picture of Jesus above is a good example of everything I am talking about. He would not even of looked like that. He would have looked nothing like any church in america has him looking like. He wouldnt have blue eyes either. He would have looked like someone from the middle east but dirtier.

But what do I know I wasnt even there.
Where did you see blue eyes in that picture? He looked unkept IMO.

but this is all a moot point, eh?
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 11:35 AM   #98
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It's human nature to think everything revolves around us. We used to believe the earth was the center of the universe. It isn't and neither are we.
I am also sick of the self-centered attitude of our culture, the world does not revolve around me. However, I do know that God created mankind with the express intent of relationship, a different reason than he created birds.
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 12:54 PM   #99
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Here's my two cents:

I don't understand where any of this changes the words and works of Christ.

In fact, I'll offer that it's these very petty and tangental issues that come between most people and their faith.

This is all matters of mechanics - and whether or not Jesus had a wife, children, or anything else is immaterial to the teachings and messages. The fact that he rose is less about the mechanics of reanimation than it is about the spirit.

I'd offer that a Jesus who had a family is a more "relateable" figure - because wasn't it his human vulnerability that made his sacrifice possible?

Granted, this whole discussion would really upset most of the Franciscans and Jesuits that helped make me who I am... :miff:
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Old March 2nd, 2007, 02:10 PM   #100
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If Jesus got a wife a child, then I agree that does not change the nature of his mission or his good work. If, however, he never rose from the dead, then that changes everything. I do agree with you that the actual mechanics of his resurrection are not the focus, but its the fact that there is reason to believe that he did, over reason to believe that he did not.
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