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Old February 28th, 2007, 10:24 AM   #61
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Are you Catholic?
raised Catholic, baptised, reconciliation, confirmation, i did it all.

now, Agnostic.

I don't think that mankind is smart enough to know what is really out there. We've made up a lot of stories to try and explain it, pagans, buddhist, christians, jews, muslims, hell even mormons, and scientologists, but with all these conflicting views, I can't say that I know Christianity is right because of where i happened to be raised...

I like to tell people that I'm a Pastafarian...worship the all knowing all seeing Flying Spaghetti Monster...for fun.

or that I'm a member of L. Ron Hoover's Church of Appliantology.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 10:31 AM   #62
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Well, maybe you're just a bad Catholic if you're not trying to save people.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 10:34 AM   #63
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Well, maybe you're just a bad Catholic if you're not trying to save people.
that's gotta be it.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 10:35 AM   #64
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Raised Catholic... weren't we all?

I was more of a C&E Catholic though.

And there are hardkore catholics out there preaching the gospel, my buddy Jim is that way, and he is now a brother who is going to be a priest one day, very passionate guy, former atheist.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 10:55 AM   #65
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I just see the whole "recruitment" thing as being a way for them to justify it to themselves. If they have so much faith in their religion, why can't that be good enough for them? Why do they think they have to bring everybody else into it?

I think they have their own doubts and this way they can make sure everyone around them believes what they believe and it makes them feel better.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 11:01 AM   #66
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The point DK is making is that, if this were true, Christianity would be false.

If Christ didn't raise, then he did not conquer death and sin would still end in eternal seperation from God. Therefore, why be a Christian if this is true.

But like I said, There is plenty of evidence to the contrary... you just have to be willing to look at it
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Old February 28th, 2007, 11:11 AM   #67
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Evidence that Jesus isn't devine doesn't prove that God does or doesn't exist. False evidence also doesn't prove he does or doesn't exist. I don't see how Agnostics will be swayed into believing in God either way.

The story, if it were true, would threaten religion, not necessarily one's faith in God. Although it may not seem that different, to me, it's a big difference.

Let me put it this way.... I believe in God, I don't believe in religion. Religion is about social control. God is about the origin of everything.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 11:17 AM   #68
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CURIOUS ABOUT FACTUAL EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION?????????

Tune in at 1:30pm-3:30pm TODAY (starts in about an hour from right now)

Click: http://cc.liquidviewer.com/radiostat...yer.php?UID=43

Hosted by Bob Dutko of wmuz radio 103.5 If you can stand the advertisements, you will be able to hear real facts in a logical fashion supporting the resurrection of a dead Jesus. Tune in! I'll be listening at work while I am pushing paper :)
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Old February 28th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #69
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I would like it known that "I" saved Kerryanns life in that hospital room with a latex statue of her new found "god".

Praise be to me.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 11:20 AM   #70
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Regarding the names being so unique on the boxes, in the article I posted the archeologists said that the names cannot be clearly deciphered. They weren't sure if the box said Jesus or Hanan. If the box was for Jesus don't you think they would have made sure it was readable if found?
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Old February 28th, 2007, 11:49 AM   #71
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If the box was for Jesus don't you think they would have made sure it was readable if found?
no. then you're back to square one on the legitimacy of the faith.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 12:13 PM   #72
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CURIOUS ABOUT FACTUAL EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION?????????

Tune in at 1:30pm-3:30pm TODAY (starts in about an hour from right now)

Click: http://cc.liquidviewer.com/radiostat...yer.php?UID=43

Hosted by Bob Dutko of wmuz radio 103.5 If you can stand the advertisements, you will be able to hear real facts in a logical fashion supporting the resurrection of a dead Jesus. Tune in! I'll be listening at work while I am pushing paper :)
Ten more minutes!
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Old February 28th, 2007, 12:36 PM   #73
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top ten proofs of resurrection just started!
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Old February 28th, 2007, 01:20 PM   #74
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top ten proofs of resurrection just started!
Sorry I tried, just for you Dave.

I stopped listening after #2.

The first 2 reasons.....
1)The bible said so.
2)The bible said so and it's an historical document.

Please fill us in on the other 8 reasons, I can't take anymore.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 01:28 PM   #75
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Actually his first two evidences were:

1. The Bible is historical documentation of actual people & actual events
(also non-biblical evidence by historians of that day).

2. The Bible’s accounts of Jesus Resurrection MEETS historian’s standards for historicity. (corroborating documents, no conflicting evidence, appropriate span of time between event and written account; original eye witnesses told with their own mouths, first hand accounts of the events; no single written denial from ANYONE about Christ’s resurrection, not a single denial).



AND... he said he was going to get into evidence outside of the Bible later. You must have missed that.

EDIT: I gotta give you credit for listening, you rock. But I think you did not listen very clear. Not trying to be mean, but you sure missed a lot if you only heard the word Bible then turned a deaf year.

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Old February 28th, 2007, 04:33 PM   #76
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I found this based off the same radio host I linked earlier. This is a good summary of what he took two hours to speak through this afternoon. What it does not have is the weath of supporting information and quotes, this is more of a quick reference guide. A bit of a long read, but good info to consider!!






Some folks deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, saying that “since none of us were there, no one can really say what happened 2000 years ago”. While there is some truth to that statement, it is an illogical argument against something having been documented in history. Here’s why. None of us were around when George Washington was President, so technically, we can’t “prove” he was President, however, if there is enough historical documentation attesting to his Presidency and corroborated historically by enough eyewitnesses, combined with absolutely no documented claims denying these facts, logic demands we accept his Presidency as historically true. To deny this would be illogical and unscientific.

The same holds true for the resurrection of Jesus and thre is an incredible amount of historically documented accounts of his resurrection from Biblical and even non-Biblical accounts. Some people have a tendency to discount the Biblical accounts because the Bible is “just a religious book”, but that is not true. In addition to the Word of God, the Bible also happens to be a book of history, documenting by eyewitnesses the actual events of that time in history. History records from eyewitnesses that Jesus Christ actually died and then 3 days later rose from the dead and was seen by 500 men over a span of 40 days, however, there are many arguments skeptics will try to use to discount this. One of the most common is to claim the disciples merely stole the body of Jesus and hid it, then lied to people telling them he really rose from the dead. So let’s examine that one particular theory and see if stands the test of scrutiny and logic by asking a few simple questions.

1. If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, why did the disciples go from frightened, timid followers of Jesus before his death, to bold evangelists willing to die preaching his resurrection if they just really made the whole thing up and he was still dead? Remember, before Jesus was crucified, the disciples were, for the most part, cowards. Peter denied even knowing Jesus 3 times before the crucifixion. What event changed them from cowards to courageous? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

2. Why were the disciples willing to be tortured and killed for a known lie? You don’t need a degree in human psychology to know that people do not die for a cause they KNOW to be false. People do certainly die for false beliefs all the time, but they THINK they are dying for the truth. If the disciples faked the resurrection, they would know Christianity is a lie. History records they were tortured and killed for their faith, and not one of them said, under torture “okay, okay, we made the whole thing up”? Why is that? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.
3. Why would they make up the resurrection story if Jesus turned out to be a fraud? Remember, Jesus told them he would rise after 3 days. If he was still dead on day four, that means he wasn’t who he claimed he was, he wasn’t the Messiah and certainly wasn’t God after all, so why would the disciples worship a dead guy who lied to them and was exposed as a fraud? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

4. What was their motive? Lies or deceptions are typically done for some selfish motive. Preaching the risen Jesus would not bring them wealth, fame, status or popularity. It would only cause them to be hated, scorned, persecuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, exiled, beheaded, tortured and crucified, as history records, so again, what could possibly be their motive? Just to save face? That’s certainly not logical. No one is going to go through what the disciples went through just because they’re too embarrassed to say “I guess we were wrong”, so what was their motive? Answer: It was the TRUTH. They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

5. How do 12 ordinary people pull off such a hoax that it causes thousands per day to convert to following their scam and redirects the entire world to even eventually change their calendars without ever getting exposed, offering a death bed confession or even admitting it under torture? Answer: It must not be a hoax. They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

6. Why would thousands of people immediately convert if Jesus didn’t actually rise from the dead? Think about it. History records that thousands upon thousands were instantly and immediately mass converting to be followers of Jesus, as many as 3000 in a day. It is recorded that after the crucifixion, Jesus appeared alive over a span of 40 days and to “500 brethren”. (Back then, only men were counted in crowd totals, so factoring in women and children, Jesus most likely appeared to safely 1500 to 2000 people over 40 days). If that many people saw Jesus alive, it would explain how so many were converting because even the most hardened skeptics would have crowds and crowds of former skeptics saying “yes, it’s true, we all have seen him too”, but if no one saw him alive and the crowds had only the words of the disciples to go by, why would thousands convert? Remember, the disciples were preaching to many who didn’t want to believe Jesus was the Messiah, so what words could they speak to hostile crowds to convince them Jesus really did rise from the dead? “Trust us”? That might convince some of the disciple’s closest friends, but not thousands upon thousands of skeptics. So why did thousands convert? Answer: Crowds must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

7. Why did the disciples make themselves look bad in the Gospels? Think about it, if you were going to make up a story, wouldn’t you present yourself in somewhat of a positive light? The disciples painted themselves as sniveling cowards lacking in faith. Why? Answer: They must have been telling the truth.

8. How did Saul of Tarsus, the chief persecutor of Christians convert to become the Apostle Paul, the chief follower of Jesus if he didn’t really have an encounter with a risen Jesus? Logically, if Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, Saul would just gloat in his victory, exposing Jesus as a fraud who couldn’t conquer death after all, so what could have caused him to convert? Answer: He must have actually encountered the risen Jesus as recorded.

9. How could the disciples even steal the body in the first place? The body was encased in a tomb with a 24 hour watch by Roman guards trained to kill. The punishment for breaking a Roman grave seal, or attempting to steal a body or overpowering a Roman soldier was death, so how did timid, cowardly disciples muster up the courage to try this? And as stated before, for what motive? That’s a big risk for absolutely no payoff. Some will say “maybe the guard was asleep”. First, dereliction of duty brought death to a Roman soldier, so I doubt they would “fall asleep” and secondly, the stone covering the tomb weighed 2 tons and was rolled into a stone groove which would have been flush against the stone opening of the grave. Think about how loud a 2 ton stone scraping against stone would be as several disciples tried to move it. I don’t think Rip Van Winkle could sleep through that, so, how could the disciples have stolen the body? Answer, they didn’t. Jesus actually rose from the dead.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 06:27 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKerwin View Post
I found this based off the same radio host I linked earlier. This is a good summary of what he took two hours to speak through this afternoon. What it does not have is the weath of supporting information and quotes, this is more of a quick reference guide. A bit of a long read, but good info to consider!!






Some folks deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, saying that “since none of us were there, no one can really say what happened 2000 years ago”. While there is some truth to that statement, it is an illogical argument against something having been documented in history. Here’s why. None of us were around when George Washington was President, so technically, we can’t “prove” he was President, however, if there is enough historical documentation attesting to his Presidency and corroborated historically by enough eyewitnesses, combined with absolutely no documented claims denying these facts, logic demands we accept his Presidency as historically true. To deny this would be illogical and unscientific.

The same holds true for the resurrection of Jesus and thre is an incredible amount of historically documented accounts of his resurrection from Biblical and even non-Biblical accounts. Some people have a tendency to discount the Biblical accounts because the Bible is “just a religious book”, but that is not true. In addition to the Word of God, the Bible also happens to be a book of history, documenting by eyewitnesses the actual events of that time in history. History records from eyewitnesses that Jesus Christ actually died and then 3 days later rose from the dead and was seen by 500 men over a span of 40 days, however, there are many arguments skeptics will try to use to discount this. One of the most common is to claim the disciples merely stole the body of Jesus and hid it, then lied to people telling them he really rose from the dead. So let’s examine that one particular theory and see if stands the test of scrutiny and logic by asking a few simple questions.

1. If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, why did the disciples go from frightened, timid followers of Jesus before his death, to bold evangelists willing to die preaching his resurrection if they just really made the whole thing up and he was still dead? Remember, before Jesus was crucified, the disciples were, for the most part, cowards. Peter denied even knowing Jesus 3 times before the crucifixion. What event changed them from cowards to courageous? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

2. Why were the disciples willing to be tortured and killed for a known lie? You don’t need a degree in human psychology to know that people do not die for a cause they KNOW to be false. People do certainly die for false beliefs all the time, but they THINK they are dying for the truth. If the disciples faked the resurrection, they would know Christianity is a lie. History records they were tortured and killed for their faith, and not one of them said, under torture “okay, okay, we made the whole thing up”? Why is that? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.
3. Why would they make up the resurrection story if Jesus turned out to be a fraud? Remember, Jesus told them he would rise after 3 days. If he was still dead on day four, that means he wasn’t who he claimed he was, he wasn’t the Messiah and certainly wasn’t God after all, so why would the disciples worship a dead guy who lied to them and was exposed as a fraud? Answer: They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

4. What was their motive? Lies or deceptions are typically done for some selfish motive. Preaching the risen Jesus would not bring them wealth, fame, status or popularity. It would only cause them to be hated, scorned, persecuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, exiled, beheaded, tortured and crucified, as history records, so again, what could possibly be their motive? Just to save face? That’s certainly not logical. No one is going to go through what the disciples went through just because they’re too embarrassed to say “I guess we were wrong”, so what was their motive? Answer: It was the TRUTH. They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

5. How do 12 ordinary people pull off such a hoax that it causes thousands per day to convert to following their scam and redirects the entire world to even eventually change their calendars without ever getting exposed, offering a death bed confession or even admitting it under torture? Answer: It must not be a hoax. They must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

6. Why would thousands of people immediately convert if Jesus didn’t actually rise from the dead? Think about it. History records that thousands upon thousands were instantly and immediately mass converting to be followers of Jesus, as many as 3000 in a day. It is recorded that after the crucifixion, Jesus appeared alive over a span of 40 days and to “500 brethren”. (Back then, only men were counted in crowd totals, so factoring in women and children, Jesus most likely appeared to safely 1500 to 2000 people over 40 days). If that many people saw Jesus alive, it would explain how so many were converting because even the most hardened skeptics would have crowds and crowds of former skeptics saying “yes, it’s true, we all have seen him too”, but if no one saw him alive and the crowds had only the words of the disciples to go by, why would thousands convert? Remember, the disciples were preaching to many who didn’t want to believe Jesus was the Messiah, so what words could they speak to hostile crowds to convince them Jesus really did rise from the dead? “Trust us”? That might convince some of the disciple’s closest friends, but not thousands upon thousands of skeptics. So why did thousands convert? Answer: Crowds must have actually seen the risen Jesus.

7. Why did the disciples make themselves look bad in the Gospels? Think about it, if you were going to make up a story, wouldn’t you present yourself in somewhat of a positive light? The disciples painted themselves as sniveling cowards lacking in faith. Why? Answer: They must have been telling the truth.

8. How did Saul of Tarsus, the chief persecutor of Christians convert to become the Apostle Paul, the chief follower of Jesus if he didn’t really have an encounter with a risen Jesus? Logically, if Jesus didn’t really rise from the dead, Saul would just gloat in his victory, exposing Jesus as a fraud who couldn’t conquer death after all, so what could have caused him to convert? Answer: He must have actually encountered the risen Jesus as recorded.

9. How could the disciples even steal the body in the first place? The body was encased in a tomb with a 24 hour watch by Roman guards trained to kill. The punishment for breaking a Roman grave seal, or attempting to steal a body or overpowering a Roman soldier was death, so how did timid, cowardly disciples muster up the courage to try this? And as stated before, for what motive? That’s a big risk for absolutely no payoff. Some will say “maybe the guard was asleep”. First, dereliction of duty brought death to a Roman soldier, so I doubt they would “fall asleep” and secondly, the stone covering the tomb weighed 2 tons and was rolled into a stone groove which would have been flush against the stone opening of the grave. Think about how loud a 2 ton stone scraping against stone would be as several disciples tried to move it. I don’t think Rip Van Winkle could sleep through that, so, how could the disciples have stolen the body? Answer, they didn’t. Jesus actually rose from the dead.
Again please dont be offended by this but Using proving George wahington was president VS. someone rising from the dead? I am sure you can see the difference here. And as far as witnesses go I found this:

The truth is out there ... in Clayton South

ONE of Australia's biggest UFO mysteries has taken off again, 40 years on.

And researchers hope the truth will out at a reunion of more than 30 witnesses tomorrow.

About 200 people are said to have seen either a flying saucer or crop circles near Westall High School on April 6, 1966.

The craft was described as silver, saucer-shaped and silent.

Some witnesses say they saw it drop behind trees at Westall's Grange Reserve, then rise vertically and leave.

Flattened and charred grass "crop circles" were said to have been left.

Canberra academic Shane Ryan says he has contacted about 50 witnesses in the past year.

Now I did not post this to offend you. I just posted it to give you an example of the power of a witness.

And as far as 1-9 this info needs to be proven before it can be used to prove something else.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 07:10 PM   #78
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if 12 people who saw a flying saucer turned the world upside down and were persecuted and killed for what they say they saw, then you better belive I will hear them out. but that is not the case.

and what part of what I pasted are you challenging? specifically the nature of a roman soldier? the fact that thousands of witnesses reported seing the risen Jesus?
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Old February 28th, 2007, 08:50 PM   #79
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To Quote Dr. Seuss......... Bibble Babble..........

To much reading for me to keep up.

And people wonder why some people do not go to Church?

Bibble Babble.........

It's not that hard either you belive or you do not. Pushing your point of view hard is only going to make people walk away or just agree and roll there eyes when they walk away.
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Old February 28th, 2007, 08:58 PM   #80
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if 12 people who saw a flying saucer turned the world upside down and were persecuted and killed for what they say they saw, then you better belive I will hear them out. but that is not the case.

and what part of what I pasted are you challenging? specifically the nature of a roman soldier? the fact that thousands of witnesses reported seing the risen Jesus?
Thousands of people believe in UFO events at Roswell new mexico. In 2000 years these events will still be talked about and skewed.

Like I said before, I believe in Jesus. I just believe that people wanted everyone to believe in him (which is a good thing) so facts were distorted along the way to scare people into it. It is called religion. I believe because I want to not because I am scared. But many Christians are scared to believe otherwise.
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