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Old February 21st, 2007, 07:06 PM   #21
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yes its hard not to laugh, but think about where John has been and seen. I have been chasing the ORV stuff now for 9 years. John already has like 10-15 years ahead of me when it comes to fighting wrongful issues. I just wish someone could have stopped Engler from making some of the slick cuts he got in. Engler was the driving force behind closing the rec areas to ORV traffic back in `91. the excuse he used was there were to many lawsuits againest the state. then in `94 the law changed so you couldn't sue the state for negligence of anykind. but did they reopen the rec areas? not on your life. the last time I asked a DNR guy about it he began spouting off about some fund that prohibited the ORVs being used on lands purchased with monies from it. the trick here is the area I asked about had been purchased and owned long before the fund existed.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 11:56 PM   #22
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Engler was the driving force behind closing the rec areas to ORV traffic back in `91. the excuse he used was there were to many lawsuits against the state. then in `94 the law changed so you couldn't sue the state for negligence of any kind. but did they reopen the rec areas? not on your life. the last time I asked a DNR guy about it he began spouting off about some fund that prohibited the ORVs being used on lands purchased with monies from it. the trick here is the area I asked about had been purchased and owned long before the fund existed.
THIS is exactly the kind of stuff that NEEDS to be passed on to us "newbies" (I had NO idea) . . . AND I think it warrants another looking into. I admit that I'm terribly busy now days, though. I don't suppose you'd be willing to write a brief synopses with as many 'facts' (traceable) as possible that I could take with me to the next MMRC meeting? I'd like to "bounce it off them" to see what their thoughts are. Boy, to get ANYTHING reopened south of the rifle line would be a God-send!
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 03:01 PM   #23
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"...I have been chasing the ORV stuff now for 9 years. John already has like 10-15 years ahead of me when it comes to fighting wrongful issues....."
Not to barge back in here, Yetti...yet I've been in this mess no longer than you.

I drove to Detroit one day in late '99 or early 2000 to attend the first ever real meeting of Michigan light 4-wheeled enthusiasts in a parking lot somewhere near the Ford museum.
All of the sudden, in rolls a fancy trailer full of everything under the sun and out hops a guy and his dog bragging of 'preferrential benefits' for previous members who obviously joined a very short period of time before I just did.

I waited around for somebody to say something (especially the guys receiving these 'discounts' that nobody else was going to receive) and when I finally raised my hand to question this 'alpha-whatever' crap....you should've witnessed how UGLY it got in a New York second.
After the obvious dirty looks shot my way from these 'pioneers' in Michigan orv history...the crowd literally surrounded this guy to the point of his nervously stammering:
......"Well, I uhhhhh had to tell them (initial members) something!..."

Years later, after many more questions were thrown their way involving our one and only chance (since then) to have a MAJORITY user representative on the board and many more threats/insults than I could ever count thrown this way over my being the only one to ever 'dare' question this guy...the club imploded over all the issues I had previously brought forward under fire and more good people were chased away than we will ever be able to count.

The latter part is the saddest story here and the only real one of consequence; yet I didn't want folks to think that I've been in this mess any longer than other good folks out there given the opportunity to become much more involved in orv issues than I....had I promised to keep my mouth shut and not questioned the obvious involving simple openness and proper public procedures. (it's pretty hard to run a club when you're not elected in the first place and it's even harder to start another if you can't even agree on a political platform to begin with that you're proud enough to stand behind).

Just wanted to set the record straight.

Oh, and by the way....that cold parking lot was the first and only time I had ever heard the phrase 'strongarming the DNR' in reference to a group who later attempted to absorb some of these same people after it was apparent that (again) no political platform was being formed or that none would be involving the opposition to issues such as 100 mile single-track only proposals in the Huron Forest (a few years back) or even House Bill 5343.

Soon after, the unfortunate title of this thread was born and the rest; as they say...is history.

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Old February 23rd, 2007, 06:02 PM   #24
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I sure wish you would name name. I refer to all these people and we are left guessing who you are "actually" talking about.

Inuendos leave me wondering.

That is all.
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Old February 24th, 2007, 12:49 PM   #25
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I can't beleive I am sticking my nose into this thread. I don't need the blood pressure issues anymore. But, well here goes nothing.

I read some of this and it seems this thread really surrounds house bill 5343 and what I assume is a lack of support for it.

Isn't this the bill (did some searching, can't find it on state or house sites) that would have widened ATV trails to accomodate the Argos vehicles? As I remember, this bill was not supported by anyone. Not because of some conspiracy against the owners or manufacturers of the wider ATV's, but because, as I remember, the majority (5.x million dollars) of the DNR 7 mill. budget for ORV improvements that year would have been used for this project in order to benefit, what at that time was a very small number of potential users.

I used to attend ORV advisory board meetings at that time and was very happy to hear that this particular bill failed. I mean really, all that money for a hand full of vehicles registered in the state at the time. Just did not make any sense. There are better ways to spend that money and still include this group of users.

Of course, if I am wrong about the nature of bill 5343, please enlighten me.
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Old February 24th, 2007, 04:30 PM   #26
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I "...but because, as I remember, the majority (5.x million dollars) of the DNR 7 mill. budget for ORV improvements that year would have been used for this project .....Of course, if I am wrong about the nature of bill 5343, please enlighten me...."
Why don't you enlighten me as to where the "5.x million" figure was ever published; by whom; referencing what publicly oversawn or funded study and how this massive research was all done in the 26 hours that the "majority" bragged instantly of killing this bill in!

You're obviously not trying to be 'enlightened'....rather attempting to spread the same propoganda that we've put up with for years now that cannot be backed up when confronted.

Again, how stupid do you believe us all to be here?

Isn't it funny how these guys argue 'cost'.....yet don't want to talk about the millions we have in our fund right now; coupled with the present push to increase fees to any level required?

And since you're obviously such an expert on just why HB5343 was 'impossible'....why don't you tell us about the "environmental concerns" card that these same 'leaders' played in defeating said bill....as this was never publicly explained any more than the 'cost' issue was....and never will be!

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Old February 25th, 2007, 10:07 AM   #27
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John I don't think it was explained past being "Impractical" for cost reasons. and as for practiced response. I haven't seen anything more about it in a long time. seems to me the subject died. now if you want to aim your anger somewhere why not ask how the ORV.A.B. has let a whole year slip by with nothing to show for the extended miles they claim we're going to get? I haven't seen anything that even remotely looked like a plan everyone would except and yet they still have all the promises that its coming.

I made the suggestion that we should get a major portion of forest roads designated as "route" and then we could use that in the miles. it wouldn't cost the users a dime other for signage. its time everyone made suggestions rather point fingers. maybe we can all come up with small pieces that can be made into something worth building on.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 07:51 PM   #28
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[QUOTE=Yetti;442144]"John I don't think it was explained past being "Impractical" for cost reasons...."

C'mon now, my friend...from your very own post on the great lakes four wheel drive association forum quoting "guess who":

http://www.glfwda.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1538

"...HB 5343: Anyone who read that Bill and understood all they read, would soon realize, it was a piece of "undersireable legislation". We can and will, do far better than that when its all over. Hope you all realize, some who post on here, are not telling it exactly like it is. Was any mention made of the cost of widening about 1,000 miles of trail to 60" and who was going to do it? What would the after affects be? Speed, safety, erosion and a host of others...."

"...I haven't seen anything more about it in a long time. seems to me the subject died...."

Well when "god" spoke both then and certainly today...who ever 'dares' question such insignificant details as contained in the last two sentances above?

"...now if you want to aim your anger somewhere why not ask how the ORV.A.B. has let a whole year slip by with nothing to show for the extended miles they claim we're going to get? I haven't seen anything that even remotely looked like a plan everyone would except and yet they still have all the promises that its coming...."

All I can tell you, Dana is that if your club leadership isn't sitting on this super-secret and anonymous board above...and if the secretive powers that be are not allowing your membership to have a publicly held position regarding this mileage; where it will be laid out ; who will be able to use it and most importantly how it will be funded....then I'd have to say that we are in even more trouble than I had ever believed.

If your club isn't on top of these hugely important issues representing the majority of our riders out there at the single most critical period in this system's history...who in the heck is pray tell that would be willing to give us an update here and possibly answer some questions directly put to them with no punches pulled?

"...I made the suggestion that we should get a major portion of forest roads designated as "route" and then we could use that in the miles. it wouldn't cost the users a dime other for signage. its time everyone made suggestions rather point fingers. maybe we can all come up with small pieces that can be made into something worth building on...."

I guess I'm pointing a finger at those who killed the suggestion that Polaris and representative Hildenbrand already made to properly widen and maintain the sytem....without anything but broad accusations that they were never required to explain or prove. These same people were backed up by your club and supposedly "22,000" others....so I have little faith that a call out now for 'suggestions' after the horse has already left the barn....will do much to convince those guilty of letting him out in the first place literally years ago.

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Old February 25th, 2007, 08:11 PM   #29
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its a post of Dicks letter. I didn't write it. the real deal is what is Dick or anyone else doing for us?
I try and keep an ear open for any little glimmer of life that would lead me to the path of ORV greatness. I haven't found it in "the club" or anywhere else. some how I managed to get granted this forum where everyone can speak openly about the Taboo subjects around this sport.
remind me to tell you a story when I see you at the next Advisory board meeting. you will get a hell of a laugh out of it.
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Old February 25th, 2007, 08:36 PM   #30
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its a post of Dicks letter. I didn't write it. the real deal is what is Dick or anyone else doing for us?
I try and keep an ear open for any little glimmer of life that would lead me to the path of ORV greatness. I haven't found it in "the club" or anywhere else. some how I managed to get granted this forum where everyone can speak openly about the Taboo subjects around this sport.
remind me to tell you a story when I see you at the next Advisory board meeting. you will get a hell of a laugh out of it.
I'll do that and will certainly never forget you or GL4x4 allowing me to have my say for probably the first time in years on a Michigan forum.

We'd all love to support Dick or anyone else out there on Michigan orv issues.

Yet with the amount of money and mileage now on the line having reached historical proportions for not only this area but by far most others in the history of motorized recreation in this country as a whole...it's time for the 'Almighty Oz' to come out from behind that curtain :dunie: (along with everybody else running cover for him).
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Old February 25th, 2007, 08:41 PM   #31
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onemanbanned you should get to know someone before you start slamming them. I happen to know that trailfanatic has been working his butt off to save trails(of all natures).Yetti ,Sorry. onemanbanned you sound like a real JERK. You are blasting someone who has actually been making headway for ORV folks. And for some who JUST started on the forum , well you come off a blanking jerk.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 07:27 AM   #32
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[QUOTE=greatpumpkin;443156]"onemanbanned you should get to know someone before you start slamming them. I happen to know that trailfanatic has been working his butt off to save trails(of all natures)...."

I don't remember Trail Fanatic's name ever coming up in this thread once.
Please re-read the above and simply quote what caused you to 'go off' on me involving any perceived slight of this individual...and I will address it.
While you're at it....please examine any of the claims that I have made on here regarding the mess that we've been put in by these people; causing countless good folks to be turned away from getting involved in these issues for many years now (arrogance and secrecy are great strategies to employ if you want to turn everybody away with half a brain or even a touch of professionalism that would 'dare' question you...as most in this category just won't put up with said crap for any length of time).

"....Yetti ,Sorry. onemanbanned you sound like a real JERK. You are blasting someone who has actually been making headway for ORV folks. And for some who JUST started on the forum , well you come off a blanking jerk...."

Again, point out where 'your guy' got his feelings hurt on this thread...didn't want to say so...and sent you on in here to set the record straight.

Are you trying to tell me that Trail Fanatic formed the super-secret council that I question above....and is just as guilty as the members on it now making that sure that all PUBLIC discussion be squashed of these millions now in our fund along with debate regarding these hundreds of extra miles and how we will fund this system through these fee increases?

I don't believe it...as TF has never been anything but receptive as to what I've had to say (qwhether he agreed with it or not) and always replied with the kind of professionalism that I would expect of somebody representing us.

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Old February 26th, 2007, 11:46 AM   #33
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You would make a good politian all the double talking you do.And no trail fanatic didn't get hie feeling hurt .Hes not that shallow.
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Old February 26th, 2007, 03:58 PM   #34
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You would make a good politian all the double talking you do.And no trail fanatic didn't get hie feeling hurt .Hes not that shallow.
It's not double-talk...just a simple question.
Where was Trail Fanatic even so much as mentioned in this thread...and if you can't answer that very direct query ...why would you want to come on up here and blurt out that he was somehow 'wronged' in any way, shape or form?

It's like everybody wants to attack you while claiming this or that...yet the second you pin them down with cold hard facts or give them a little history lesson where their valiant knights in shining armor fall off their own darn horse for no good reason ...they disappear!
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Old February 26th, 2007, 04:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
It's not double-talk...just a simple question.
Where was Trail Fanatic even so much as mentioned in this thread...and if you can't answer that very direct query ...why would you want to come on up here and blurt out that he was somehow 'wronged' in any way, shape or form?
Here ya go.. a direct quote you took from Trail_Fanatic.

Quote:
Originally posted by
Trail_Fanatic:

"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
I serve on it as a representative of the over 50" ORV class.

Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?
Heaven knows we could use the help.
Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either.
Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works.

One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up."
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic
"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
...."

Then 'Google' these anonymous bastards operating as our supposed voice for YEARS now and pay special attention to the heading "Concerns of trail riders delay changes in ORV rules...".

Now tell me something Mr. "over 50 inch"....what in the heck machine do these goofs want 'banned' if they are not indeed regulated in WHAT manner?

And are you in possesssion of some kind of holier-than-thou 'proclamation' from these arrogant arses regarding the further use of my machine or god forbid the Polaris RZR that we here in the overall orv community are presently unaware of?

What's next?

You and your anonymous buddies working hard into the night on seeking to 'ban' this grounbreaking machine from the 50" trails also?

Seems to me that as our side-byu-side 'representative'....you SURELY should have all manner of commentary regarding this new product that Polaris finally and thankfully shoved right back up your rear ends when you slammed the door in both their and OUR faces here in Michigan.(sorry, but in the less than 26 hours it took to kill this thing...NOT A 'PEON' MEMBER OF THIS ORV COMMUNITY EITHER KNEW ABOUT THIS BILL OR RECEIVED EVEN A FAIR OPPORTUNITY TO SO MUCH AS COMMENT ON SAME....AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT).

So now that you've Googled this 100% out-in-the-open represenative council that you're "Mr. over 50 inch" on.....how many and what references do you find explaining exactly what they or you believe in (beyond feel good politico speak) and more importantly...can you ascertain just HOW they are representing us with all these 10's of millions of dollars now on the line?
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Old February 26th, 2007, 06:10 PM   #36
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You wonder why everyone has banned you. Don't you see that your posts are 10 times longer than they need to be? You continue to use inuendos and hint at things.


Just say it short and simple!
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Old February 26th, 2007, 08:09 PM   #37
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You wonder why everyone has banned you. Don't you see that your posts are 10 times longer than they need to be? You continue to use inuendos and hint at things.
Just say it short and simple!
I've been the one willing to lay out the dirty laundry here....if you have a problem with something I have said to date being factual...'short and simple' here tell me what that is.

By the way, I totally missed TF's post on the 16th....yet even so....why does it take 3 other guys to come on here about how his feelings were somehow hurt?

I can see pretty much gather from scanning said post briefly that even after only a year of hearing one side of the story....he can pretty much speak and defend his thoughts more than intelligently and professionally without any help from a peanut gallery only willing to spout a few sentances of ridicule to the facts presented while crawling back in to the hole.

In fact, I haven't witnessed anybody but Yetti and TF willing to give their frank and open opinions on all of these sorted critical issues staring us in the face for years now....so I guess that I have more respect for both of these two at the moment....than the rest of you on here combined. (I'll respond to TF's post later; just as I've responded to most questions here when asked).
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Old February 26th, 2007, 10:00 PM   #38
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:chiefwoohaw: <---this needs to be changed to :onemanbanned: instead of chiefwoohaw:

:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:
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Old February 27th, 2007, 06:25 AM   #39
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:chiefwoohaw: <---this needs to be changed to :onemanbanned: instead of chiefwoohaw:

:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:
Again, we've got plenty of riders in this state willing to attack whoever brings the facts forward....but few willing (and I'm starting to think 'able') to dispute the facts themselves.

I've spent a lot of time explaining exactly how we got here and why these recently released millions are not being talked about anymore than a fee increase that we should be openly debating for the sustainable sake and overall health of what will soon be an almost 4,000 mile system. (a system in such bad shape, that the very 'leaders' shepherding this discussion behind closed doors....desired "shut down for study" in certain areas that they would not and still won't identify).

I hate to say it folks....but if you choose not to operate out in the open and with even a hint of professionalism or respect for the procedural matters which give order to this mess (advisory board terms extended for literally years without any kind of announcement or explanation; our stenographer eliminated recording who said what and when; meetings cancelled because "we have nothing to talk about"; the list goes on....) then you're left with guys hanging big signs out the front door of your gatherings that look similiar to the picture in the above signature.

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Old February 27th, 2007, 07:09 AM   #40
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Pat, if you ever meet this this jackass...
Quote:
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he is retarded.....fullsize users here could care less about your Rzr or your Rhino.....running his uneducated lips....propaganda.... WE DONT WANT PSYCOS STALKING US.... we dont like mentally unstable, socially inept jackasses."

And by the way John, I am *a MMRC member*!....
I rest my case.

Two posts and 'out' of crass insults....yet not a word to any of the myriad of issues brought forward here....on account of the fact that we're literally all out in the open here seeking publicly held positions to afford us even some kind of clue as to how this board representing "22,000" of us will proceed with literrally tens of millions of our dollars now on the line.

I'm telling you....we will NEVER attract professional or younger people with legitimate questions if they continually run into the behavior exhibited above.

And I believe a lot of folks have desired that to be the case for decades now.

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