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Old February 10th, 2007, 07:27 PM   #21
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Try to think about it as addiing 750 miles of multi-county linkage trail; receiving a blank ticket to fight for huge fee increases (if one possesses the courage to) and most importantly a chance to include your fine northern neighborhoods in on a piece of that sweet funding pie you're about to serve up fresh to make "everybody" happy on this trail sytem.......
well I haven't been holding my breath on that. I don't think the state has the monies for the upgrades or the ability to pull it off. I sat through the meeting with the CCC doing their thing to get more motorcycle only trails and give up the old in favor of it. I still think the southern michigan riding area is a posiblity with the right backing but it won't be state funded.

I don't know if you ever heard what I said at the meeting with the Doc from MSU when they told about the increase in $25.50 for trail stickers. I told them it wouldn't work. theres no way the people of the state would pay more to have nothing more then they have now. I figured the increase would cost them about half the sticker sales they have now.because at that price people would just forgo buying and take the chance at getting caught without.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 07:31 PM   #22
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I also find it interesting that you agree with robbing any further funding needed to create/maintain these huge roadside projects directly from the enforcement fund....a fund already 'swung at' earlier (along with maintenance money) when the 'orv community' suggested cutting their percentage of both these important aspects in 'our' last fee increase recommendation to the state.

at what point would putting in for grant monies be robbing. if you were a sanctioned club you could apply for funds to do maintenance, the same way the cops apply for monies in Ogemaw or any other open county to do inforcement. its all there in black & white.

as for any changes in fees or usage of fees that has to be approved by law.
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Old February 10th, 2007, 08:54 PM   #23
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forgive me if I sounded like a snot. but the part I was refering to looked like 3 topics stuck in one sentence. I am and will be here to read all of this stuff since its my section to look after. by the way is this John?
Dana,

You know that if anybody is going to come across as a snot....it certainly won't be you when the day is done and handshakes are made.

My point was that I've never witnessed current Michigan orv issues vigorously debated (publicly) without money changing hands for the right to do so.

I feel it is our responsibility to financially support both forums and off-road clubs....just not necessarily the type that reach for our wallets as a condition of evaluating their 'publicly held' positions on the issues of the day....first.

Thanks for the reply,

John
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Old February 10th, 2007, 09:09 PM   #24
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"... I sat through the meeting with the CCC doing their thing to get more motorcycle only trails and give up the old in favor of it...
I'll respectfully respond in detail later; yet I just had to copy and paste this short observation for the sake of simple disbelief.

I've been asking this same question since before the days of the classic "$50,000 100 mile Huron Forest single track only land grab" attempt and thought that the above subject was indeed "taboo" in relation to public discussion.

Hey, there's always more folks out there than you think who believe in true multi-use trail sytems which finally force all of us to work together on the same systems.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 09:11 AM   #25
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Yetti,

Some thoughts on the letter and this legislative issue:

1) Rep. Smith's aide is using a bit of a cop out with "she's busy with the budget."

2) Rep. Smith is setting up the insurance lobby as the bad guys if the bill doesn't go anywhere. (The insurance lobby tends to support Republicans more than Democrats because of philosophical differences.)

3) The insurance lobby is huge and well-funded and if you push too hard for a lot of open right of way, you may end up with nothing. (I say on projects like this, start small and then follow up with legislation later to expand what you already have. That's easier than opening up the whole state at once.)

4) Find out from Rep. Sheltrown what his involvement has been with the insurance lobby -- I'm sure he's had contact with them, either because he initiated it or they came in to try and amend the bill if they couldn't get it killed through other means. (If they are even opposed to it. Maybe they just don't like some of it.)

5) Find out what committee this went to, as that can tell you a lot about its chances.

6) Don't give up! These things can take a lot of time and effort but they can pay off, too. When I had a senator introduce the bill last session about getting damaged ORV stickers replaced for free, it took a full year to get it done because the issue used to fall off the office's radar for a while -- but it was still moving forward slowly in the background. We got the bill pushed through committees in the House and Senate plus through a full vote of the House and Senate in just the last two weeks of session!

Good luck!
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Old February 11th, 2007, 09:31 AM   #26
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Our thanks go out to everyone who has contacted their state representative and senator. We have been contacted by a large number of legislators asking for more information on the ORV legislation. We're still waiting for the Draft 3 (the draft after the changes you suggested) to come back from the attorneys. We hope to introduce it next week. It will have a bill number then you can reference and I imagine a copy of the bill will be posted here. The House committee hearing on the bill is planned to take place the week of February 19. We're not waiting around to get this done!

The bill will go to the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources Committee. The 11 members of that committee have just been named. While it is important for everyone to contact their representative so the bill has the support it needs when it goes before the full House, if you are a constituent of one of the people listed below, it is particulary important that you, your family, and your friends contact them ASAP as these are the House committee members:

Sheltrown (Chair-all counties along M-55 in northern LP) "no need to contact him of course"
Ebli (Dem Vice Chair-Monroe County)
Casperson (GOP Vice Chair-Escanaba and southern UP)
Hammon (Dem-Genesse County)
Brown (Dem-Thumb)
Law (Dem-Downriver & SW Wayne Co.)
Lindberg (Dem-Marquette & northern UP)
Simpson (Dem-Jackson County)
Horn (GOP-rural Saginaw County)
Stakoe (GOP-NW Oakland County)
Walker (GOP-Grand Traverse & Kalkaska)


By the way, any legislator who has decided to support the bill is going to be VERY CLEAR in telling you that. The letter published here from Rep. Hune is a good example. Anything else is fluff to appear to be supportive until they see the bill and get a better handle on the issue. At this point, most legislators will reply with a seemingly supportive but noncommittal letter. This should be expected as most don't quite know what the legislation does yet and haven't seen a copy of the bill. The exceptions like Rep. Hune either are ORV owners themselves, are already strong supporters of motorized recreation, or represent a county in northern Michigan that has already opened its road system.

-Brady (Rep. Sheltrown's office)
I think this is what you wanted to see. it was posted in the pub so as not to be over looked.

and if you read back a bit in this thread I mensioned I already wrote them back to not push the subject on the added measures. I would prefer it not die.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 09:41 AM   #27
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Thanks Yetti -- that's good news about the committee assignment!
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Old February 11th, 2007, 11:09 AM   #28
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[QUOTE=Yetti;421127]"well I haven't been holding my breath on that. I don't think the state has the monies for the upgrades or the ability to pull it off...."

I'm a little confused here as to your reference towards 'the state' not having monies when we bring up the parties behind-closed-doors right now (supposedly) making certain that the state's monetary contribution is indeed minimal.
People across this country on both sides of orv access and environmental issues are waiting patiently to see what a 22,000 member anonymous representative user council comes up with concerning (quote/unquote) "the community's" position on what is frankly a groundbreaking funding proposal not penned by the state....BUT BY US. (the same folks supposedly providing "the monies" you evidently refer to above)

The massive amounts of new mileage; the millions now demanding commentary on from us in both November's election and now through this automatic fee increase....all of these are not produced products of 'the state'....so why in the heck should we expect THEM to pay for "upgrades' that I'm certain that nobody will (inexplainably) simply spell out here in the light of day on our own public forums...much less funded by gunpoint through their coffers?

Again, what 'upgrades' are you referring to and why would you be the first person in this state to publicly just come right out and tell us about these after all these years of utter and complete silence on what 'we' tell anybody concerning 'our' needs, wants and desires?

"...I sat through the meeting with the CCC doing their thing to get more motorcycle only trails and give up the old in favor of it...."

Again, I've asked the question for years:
What are these cyclists telling our own representatives sitting there also with bags pulled over their heads for the sake of secrecy....about "giving up the old in favor of...." anything?
For gosh sakes, Dana...do we need some kind of some kind of damn "secret society" just to come out here and talk like men about trail issues???
We've got more damn 'private' discussion forums for pete's sakes than we have intelligent folks willing to speak outside of same at any given time and on ANY given issue! (and the 'community' believes that this will draw more people and in a unified manner....when they have to join 'x' number of clubs just to be accepted into any ONE conversation or debate?

"....I still think the southern michigan riding area is a posiblity with the right backing but it won't be state funded....."

And if it won't be funded by the folks you mention earlier as not even having the power to pull off upgrades in the present system (the one we all should've been worried about for decades now)....WHY IN THE HELL ARE WE WASTING THE THOUSANDS OF HOURS SPENT TO DATE TREATING THIS CONCEPT LIKE IT IS SOME KIND OF DAMN HOLY GRAIL...WHILE THE PRESENT SYSTEM LANGUISHES TO THE POINT OF OUR 'LEADERS' ASKING MANY PARTS OF THE SYSTEM TO BE SHUT DOWN PERMENANTLY FOR SOME KIND OF DAMN ECOLOGICAL DAMAGE STUDY???

I find it very hard to believe that folks from southwestwern Michigan are willing to look at our state as 'one' and make the travel/spend the dollars needed to visit these places.....while everybody with the big city suburban lights glowing in their eyes constantly can't acknowledge the value of keeping our northern areas as the sole provider of these off-road services for the sake of overall economic health.

I'm telling you; it just cements our opinion of how you guys have operated over the years in terms of "in-state" and "out-state" funding and the fact that not even ONE of you over there views these upstate citizen's livelihoods as being absolutely paramount in our closed-door decision-making process....tells me a lot about who has been wasting this community's invaluable time and resources seeking out this area for purely profit and "convenience's" sake.

"...iI don't know if you ever heard what I said at the meeting with the Doc from MSU when they told about the increase in $25.50 for trail stickers. I told them it wouldn't work. theres no way the people of the state would pay more to have nothing more then they have now. I figured the increase would cost them about half the sticker sales they have now.because at that price people would just forgo buying and take the chance at getting caught without...."

C'mon....let's get 'real' here, Dana!
The last figures "I" saw concerning overall sticker purchases in this state...showed orv sticker sales to be FLAT for at least the last 3 years!!!
Is your reasoning above shared by ANYBODY representing this orv community at this present time....and ESPECIALLY any one member of the all-important funding proposal committee??

I mean for gosh sakes, my friend.....where do I start with a statement like that?

(sorry, gotta go....)

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Old February 11th, 2007, 11:34 AM   #29
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People across this country on both sides of orv access and environmental issues are waiting patiently to see what a 22,000 member anonymous representative user council comes up with concerning (quote/unquote) "the community's" position on what is frankly a groundbreaking funding proposal not penned by the state....BUT BY US. (the same folks supposedly providing "the monies" you evidently refer to above)
I have no knowlage of any 22,000 member panel doing research for the state. would give more info?

Quote:
The massive amounts of new mileage
the mileage is not cast in stone, as a matter of fact I have seen nothing to the contrary. I have only seen & heard suggestions for new research in to putting up more miles. the display that CCC put on was just that a display. it got nobody any trails yet.


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the millions now demanding commentary on from us in both November's election and now through this automatic fee increase
What fee increases are automatic? there are none that I now of, if the `05 proposed changes were to go forward from the Doc then it would have to go before the senate to be turned into law before any increase could take effect.


Quote:
....all of these are not produced products of 'the state'....so why in the heck should we expect THEM to pay for "upgrades' that I'm certain that nobody will (inexplainably) simply spell out here in the light of day on our own public forums...much less through their coffers?

Again, what 'upgrades' are you referring to and why would you be the first person in this state to publicly just come right out and tell us about these after all these years of utter and complete silence on what 'we' tell anybody concerning 'our' needs, wants and desires?
well as for monies to be spent, the only money I know exists in the coffers of the ORV fund. if the guys in charge of it every get off their collective asses then maybe will see something...I doubt it at this point though.

and as for "Upgrades" that was a refference to the letter writing I have done in hopes of getting the entire state covered under the new proposed bill. I would have hoped the state wouldn't be short sighted and leave people & groups behind that could benifit from the opening of countys in hard hit areas without manufacturing jobs. some people still like to cruise backroads for the hell of it, I think tourisum is the only thing left the state could use to save itself at this point.
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Old February 11th, 2007, 12:46 PM   #30
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"I have no knowlage of any 22,000 member panel doing research for the state. would give more info?....

From the ATVA website: (fourth paragraph from the bottom)
http://www.atvaonline.com/Clubs/MI_Offroad.asp

What did you do, Dana....quit this club even before these guys installed their own anonymous 'representative' on this super-secret council?

Or are you yet and still a member of same....and simply trying to pull my chain here?

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Old February 11th, 2007, 08:33 PM   #31
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[QUOTE=Zookeeper;421544]Yetti,

Some thoughts on the letter and this legislative issue:

2) Rep. Smith is setting up the insurance lobby as the bad guys if the bill doesn't go anywhere. (The insurance lobby tends to support Republicans more than Democrats because of philosophical differences..."
)

Well then if the "bad guys" aren't obviously the insurance lobby...who in the heck are we fighting here?
The road commissioners?
The DNR can't lobby the issue any more than one agency can do so to the other...so who will be put to 'blame' here and who are our greatest 'enemies' in this fight?

"...3) The insurance lobby is huge and well-funded and if you push too hard for a lot of open right of way, you may end up with nothing. (I say on projects like this, start small and then follow up with legislation later to expand what you already have. That's easier than opening up the whole state at once.)..."

Now it seems that the 'bad guys' will most definitely be the insurance industry if we dare lobby for administrative power to be given to ALL these county commissioners at 'God forbid' the same time.
Is there some kind of rhyme or reason to this strategy that I am not understanding here?

Dana is supposed to believe that the only two groups who don't actually even TRAVEL the sides of our roads...will definitely be the 'brains' behind our efforts to prevent these road commissioners from in fact having the power to close them just as fast as they can be opened over an unfunded mandate and a bad taste in their mouth over being painted as the villains here from the get-go.

Sounds like one heck of a plan to me....(by the way, when are the sides of our roads and the people who have been forced to now be stewards of same while maintaining them...receive the same respect that each of our trail systems has received without 'applying' for the funds to simply maintain them?...hmmm?).
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Old February 11th, 2007, 09:44 PM   #32
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I will have to find the letter I read about what the county road commisioners powers are. the #1 thing they have to do is abide by what the county commisioner says and the chamber of commerce. so unless a county is voted open then its a mute point. as of right now I only expect to get some countys open. if the bill comes through great...if not I can say we tried. the only thing the bill was going to do is clarify the law. as of right now the countys can still open as they see fit with just as much roads as they would with the bill. the idea here was to make it clear to everyone that countys have the right to open. if you catch some of the old threads from 2 -3 years back the countys that have trails were watching this from way back then. many didn't want to push the open road shoulder issue because the law was kinda gray. it still is, will it be after the bill goes forward? I hope not.

as for bad guys. this state is in a death grip of the insurance lobby, I would hate to think what we would have without them.
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Old February 12th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phittie1100;420878"...It would give the authority back to the county (or clarify the county's authority, depending on how you view it) to determine if they will open the road shoulders of their county to ATV users.
[B
The road commissions[/B] for each county would only have to 'deal with it' if their county passed an ordinance to allow this type of use.
Question:

Was this the consensus of our super-secret Michigan Motorized Recreation Council(?)....or simply the more prominent and anonymous members of same who don't ride these shoulders anyways or (in reality) very much 'care' if these road commissions eventually shut them back down anyways over being forced to "deal with it" sans any fixed funding made availiable today as our sensitive trail system obviously enjoys?
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Old February 12th, 2007, 07:50 PM   #34
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[QUOTE=Yetti;420908[COLOR="yellow"]]"well from what I have seen so far the Governing body of this state has done little to improve the Recreation aspects of the intire state. so the majority of counties are doing there part, some open to tree huggers like yourself and the rest want to get money coming in...."[/COLOR]


I guess that if you can't refute a fellow enthusiast's valid points....you label him as a "tree hugger"! :)

I gotta quit buying 4x4's before I develop some kind of nasty reputation....

"...the money is with the people who work and pay for permits and taxes on the use of trails..."

"...the ones who ride mountain bikes and horses on the trails don't have a Fee to use the trails other then to camp....."


In a true pay-to-play system that both our camp and theirs continue to ignore....this becomes a mute issue as everybody works on the same trail together to reduce all costs associated with same.
the only thing separating us from this concept...are the folks now claiming to maintain these trails far better than we or anyone else ever could and quite frankly 'addicted' to the grant-type money stopping this from ever happening.

"...the other side of the coin is that the DNR is run by many who would see the state shut down to all motorized travel. just the idea erks me....I think they call them facists....."

I find it pretty ironic that our community is all about describing the DNR as fascists or worse....yet they are 100% in agreement that these same people should be the sole gatekeeper to the contact information concerning their very own orv advisory board members (not to mention allowing these same people to extend board member's terms not once, but twice....without so much as a peep from anybody).

What are you guys going to do if these people ever do indeed live up to their name...and demand yet even MORE control of how all of us here in the orv community interact?

"....by the way in what way is the bill being "railroaded"? I have yet to see anyone backed into a corner by us or anyone else....."

If you don't think that these road commissions have good reason to believe that they are being literally 'railroaded' into maintaining even more than they do now with absolutely no guarantee of direct and timely compensation...then I don't know what to call it.

When our so-called 'leaders' introduce a bill such as this with absolutely no intent on ever working closely with these public employees in terms of funding the damn project long term....then I'm sorry to say....but you are liable to hear the term 'railroading' associated with their mis-guided efforts.
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Old February 14th, 2007, 09:17 PM   #35
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"....I don't know if you ever heard what I said at the meeting with the Doc from MSU when they told about the increase in $25.50 for trail stickers. I told them it wouldn't work. theres no way the people of the state would pay more to have nothing more then they have now. I figured the increase would cost them about half the sticker sales they have now.because at that price people would just forgo buying and take the chance at getting caught without...."
Since this is yet another 'taboo' subject; I'll just come out and say what everybody else is obviously not 'allowed' to:

Fact:
Our (cough) 'leaders' proposed that we triple the percentage taken out for their subsidized training programs and leave all other percentage 'the same' per the original funding formula.

Fact:
Nobody in this state said a word about the impossibility of this ever happening; as I suppose that those supporting this super-secret and anonymous council....can't 'cipher to good' when it comes to percentage funding formulas.

Let me break it down for those still in the dark:
Going from $1 taken out of $16.25....to $3 dollars taken out of $25....leaves all other percentages and programs in the overall budget....at a net LOSS as compared to how they were funded previously.

Now I understand that most people don't really know why the state had to step in and shut these training programs down to reconfigure them in the first place....yet why in the heck do you send the same bozos in to represent us proposing an even BIGGER fee increase....when they embarrasingly botched our first-ever attempt to finally portray us as responsible stewards of this trail sytem and the environment ....so inexcusably badly?

What's next?

Separate fees for separate machines?

Some kind of mass protest by our community over the DNR's insistence that we finally look at FOR PROFIT privitized maintenance contracts that assure the job is done right and consistently?

Possibly a bunch of crying like the sledders did when the state made them display registration numbers at least as big as watercraft sizes....a simple requirement already proven to be effective for decades? (and god forbid that the state make them in 21st century day-glo colors for better visibility...it just wouldn't be 'cool'....).

"...theres no way the people of the state would pay more to have nothing more then they have now. I figured the increase would cost them about half the sticker sales they have now.because at that price people would just forgo buying and take the chance at getting caught without..."

I'll ask this once again because frankly I'm pretty much speechless on this one, Dana....IS THIS HOW ANYBODY IN THIS COMMUNITY THINKS AND ESPECIALLY THOSE NOW DECIDING WHAT WE WANT IN THIS FEE INCREASE PROPOSAL???
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Old February 14th, 2007, 10:44 PM   #36
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super-secret Michigan Motorized Recreation Council

Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
I serve on it as a representative of the over 50" ORV class.

Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?
Heaven knows we could use the help.
Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either.
Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works.

One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up.

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Old February 15th, 2007, 03:10 AM   #37
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[QUOTE=Trail_Fanatic;427618[COLOR="Red"][B]]"...There's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
I serve on it as a representative of the over 50" ORV class...."
[/B][/COLOR]

Ahhhh!
Our very first publicly announced council member! (after how many years of silence on every single orv issue brought forward over that very long period of time?).

Are you here to make a statement as to who else serves on this council representing orvs in the state of Michigan and what their collective views are....or have you come across the moat to take a potshot; heave up the drawbridge and return defiantly to the collective fortress?

A couple questions if you don't mind.
I am a long time Rhino owner who certainly had trouble joining the "over 50 inch" folks that at least "I" talked to when my rig first hit the market.
Question #1...wasn't it you and your council who literally bragged about killing the 60" widening bill (House Bill 5343) in less than 26 hours???....):

And if you are indeed Mr. "over 50 inch".....who do I talk to PUBLICLY on this council about the new Polaris RZR and how this innovative manufacturer has literally shoved this groundbreaking machine right on up your collective rear ends after your 'representative council' immediately jumped all over this environmentally sound widening bill brought forward through Representative Hildenbrand and others without public or even orv community commentary?
(from atvconnection.com):http://www.atvconnection.com/Feature...Ranger-RZR.cfm

And as a follow-up....Did you support the notion that widening these trails to 60 inches was indeed 'cost prohibitive'....while at the same time ram-rodding even more mileage through this council and later our legislature? (we show up at our advisory board meeting only to be told that our trails are in disgusting disrepair and should indeed be closed down for 'study'...yet the next thing you know....Polaris is getting their teeth kicked out over establishing the correct width needed to actually MAINTAIN these trails correctly with decent equipment! (while yet even more trails are ADDED with absolutely no public discussion whatsoever as to the actually funding of ANY of this new mileage).

And excuse me, if indeed "there (is) nothing 'super-secret' about the MMRC...."
....then how in the heck did "blackballed" below get both his name and signature?
(from atvconnection.com)http://forums.atvconnection.com/mess...did/473974.cfm

"...Sir (John, is it?),

The world is run by those who show up.
If you don't like the way it's being run, maybe it's time you showed up?..."


(lol)
How many MORE times would you like me to "show up"...and how do my appearances "showing up" compare with 99% of the folks out there who have never made a trip to Lansing or maybe never even hosted youth training sessions out of their own damn pockets?
How would you like "showing up" after driving all the way to Lansing....and then be rudely shouted down; lied to and gaveled out the door before your alloted time to publicly speak was over with?

"Show up"....why don't YOU show up when it comes time to answer the tough questions that I've brought forward on this board to date...instead of taking the simpleton 'attack' route like every other arrogant and anonymous member of the council that you sit on with a bag over your head?

"...Heaven knows we could use the help..."

What help????

'Help' in bashing every orv user out there who comes up with a legitimate question directed towards representative 'leaders' that they can't even contact without spending several years attempting to determine who they even ARE or what they are in effect telling others as to what 'we' want?

Where in the heck were you when I needed "help" in getting the damn orv advisory board to meet as scheduled right smack dab in the middle of the single most important period in Michigan's orv history?
How about 'help' in forcing the DNR to publish the damn meeting minutes a full 8 weeks after that?
Or was "Mr. over 50 inch" so far 'in the know' during this critical time period....that us mere peons out here with no bag to put over our head ....weren't really a concern in regards to even the most basic tenants of procedural protocol?

"...Complaining doesn't constitute helping, either...."

You know something, Trail Fanatic...I'll complain any time I DAMN WELL LIKE when it comes to you and your MMRC 'buddies' supposedly representing me for all these years without so much as even a meeting minutes published and literally tens of millions now on the line affecting MY resource.
How such a flat out arrogant attitude such as yours can be so wide-spread in this community is certainly beyond me; yet your failure to tackle even ONE of the tough questions raised since I've had the pleasure of joining this forum; tells me that 'silence' is about all we're going to indeed receive from 'leaders' such as yourself while these millions do indeed get spent .

"...Think long enough to come up with at LEAST one possible solution to each of your problems.
Maybe one will be "THE" one which finally works...."


Here you are avoiding every damn question about the problems themselves.....effectively BLOCKING every single discussion designed to dig away at the root of our problems while offering solutions at the same time...and all you've got for a 'comeback' is that each one of these is MY problem not 'worthy' of your input!

I mean, really TF....doesn't the above statement almost DEFINE the arrogance I've been describing here in almost graphic detail???
Can you possibly GET any more look-down-your-nose than that...or are you simply 'warming up'?

"....One of the 'rules' (suggestions) of activism I picked up along the way (and like VERY much):

If you don't have a solution to offer,
You don't have a problem to bring up...."


Which is the biggest bunch of fluff politico spin ever thought up and one that has been used by rank amateur politicians for years.

99.9% of the folks bringing any issue before ANYBODY damn well possess a solution in mind and aren't a bit 'afraid' to tell you about it....IF GIVEN THE CHANCE TO DO SO.

What usually gets in the way of these good folks ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHING THIS; is, again, 'spin meisters' like yourself continually attempting to divert any and all attention away from the subject at hand.
Want an example?
How about all the very simple and direct questions asked previously (there must be 'fifty' good ones by now)....with nothing but a claim by you that absolutely no solutions can be found in either the questions themselves or god forbid the massive amount of text put forth to date indeed explaining how we need to fix what is broken.

If you want to act like the rest of these guys and re-direct everything thrown at you with well worn out politico 'sayings'...have at it.

Yet I believe there are a few on this board who understand the facts brought forward to date here whether I get kicked off of this forum before explaining them further or not.

I don't like talking to long-respected members of these forums like this, believe me....vet this crap has gone on for far to long and it must stop before our kids lose any further interest in getting involved in these issues.
If these young people have to work even half as hard as I have had to in wading through the cast of condescending characters standing in their way on these issues...who in the heck here believes that they will ever pick up even one of them and run with it???

Last edited by OneManBanned; February 15th, 2007 at 03:40 AM.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 07:13 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
"Therf's nothing super-secret about the MMRC.
...."
Then 'Google' these anonymous bastards operating as our voice for YEARS now and pay special attention to the heading "Concerns of trail riders delay changes in ORV rules...".

Now tell me something Mr. "over 50 inch"....what in the heck machine do these goofs want 'banned' if they are not indeed regulated in WHAT manner?

And are you in possesssion of some kind of holier-than-thou 'proclamation' from these arrogant arses regarding the further use of my machine or god forbid the Polaris RZR that we are presently unaware of?

What's next?

You and your anonymous buddies working hard into the night on seeking to 'ban' this grounbreaking machine from the 50" trails also?

Seems to me that as our side-byu-side 'representative'....you SURELY should have all manner of commentary regarding this new product that Polaris finally and thankfully shoved right back up your rear ends when you slammed the door in both their and OUR faces here in Michigan.(sorry, but in the less than 26 hours it took to kill this thing...NOT A 'PEON' MEMBER OF THIS ORV COMMUNITY EITHER KNEW ABOUT THIS BILL OR RECEIVED EVEN A FAIR OPPORTUNITY TO SO MUCH AS COMMENT ON SAME....AND YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT).

So now that you've Googled this 100% out-in-the-open represenative council that you're "Mr. over 50 inch" on.....how many and what references do you find explaining exactly what they or you believe in (beyond feel good politico speak) and more importantly...can you ascertain just HOW they are representing us with all these 10's of millions of dollars now on the line?

Last edited by OneManBanned; February 15th, 2007 at 07:42 AM.
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Old February 15th, 2007, 08:12 AM   #39
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Adding to the comment above regarding the banning of these 'newer' machines (not motorcycles obviously) or further regulating their use....is there somebody on your super-secret council addressing Mr. Moll's pressing issue here (page 4) immediately before the last orv advisory board meeting adjourned? http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...s_179305_7.pdf

Is it your job Mr "over 50 inch" to contact both the NOHVCC and the CPSC (and I'd like to know who in the heck suggested this) regarding Mr. Moll's insistence that something by gosh be done about this?

...and Nichigan orv enthusiasts have allowed this guy's term to expire in December without so much as a 'peep' from ANYBODY in the orv community for exactly what reason?

Yeah, we need one of the few true orv representives we have on that board writing letters to Polaris, Yamaha and the all the other manufacturers out there as to how they should damn well build their product.

And you guys expect that we should all just 'leave it up to you' and quit asking these pesky questions as to just who represents us and what they have to say about us to the media and others even more important to this sport.

Last edited by OneManBanned; February 15th, 2007 at 08:22 AM.
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Old February 16th, 2007, 08:18 AM   #40
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onemanbanned, name says it all! This guy has been banned from the very forum where he could have made a difference. These fullsize users here could care less about your Rzr or your Rhino.

Now he has to resort to coming here and running his uneducated lips into some form of propaganda that everyone is against him.

I will spell it out for you right here John NO ONE WANTS YOU TO KNOW WHO IS ON THE MMRC BECUASE WE DONT WANT PSYCOS STALKING US. The world is definatley against you after all, we dont like mentally unstable, socially inept jackasses.
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