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Old January 9th, 2007, 05:01 PM   #41
CheapThrillB2
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waiting for two other people and we'll be on our way there
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Old January 9th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #42
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well we just got back from the meeting

it felt like going to a U.N. meeting to discuss world peace with Hitler runing the U.N.

it was a joke, everything that we (for Kids in the Mud) brought up as argumentive points were taking completely out of context and twisted our examples in their arguments. It appeared all but one township member had prewritten their denial speech it give at the end. I thought the Township board members are supposed to be rather nuetral of their personal opinions and do what the township feels is best. Clearly those township member did exactly what they personally wanted with no regards to much of anything else.

So the Township did everything they could and denied KITM of any chance at this point of opening.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 06:27 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheapThrillB2 View Post
well we just got back from the meeting

it felt like going to a U.N. meeting to discuss world peace with Hitler runing the U.N.

it was a joke, everything that we (for Kids in the Mud) brought up as argumentive points were taking completely out of context and twisted our examples in their arguments. It appeared all but one township member had prewritten their denial speech it give at the end. I thought the Township board members are supposed to be rather nuetral of their personal opinions and do what the township feels is best. Clearly those township member did exactly what they personally wanted with no regards to much of anything else.

So the Township did everything they could and denied KITM of any chance at this point of opening.

well - that completely sucks

was there legal representation present on behalf of KITM ?

are there any next steps that can be taken to push things in a different angle ?
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Old January 10th, 2007, 07:53 AM   #44
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You can sue them. You think they have played the delay tactics now, just wait until the lawyers start playing. Three years minimum I would venture to guess with no guarantee of anything other than legal bills.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 08:05 AM   #45
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The outcome is diappointing, but it was pretty much expected. 3 out of the 4 board members that were there have properties that adjoin the KITM property. I could tell as soon as we walked in that nothing the lawyer for KITM said was going to be listened to. I haven't talked to Dave yet today, but I'm pretty sure he's planning on going to court to appeal the decision. John is right though, they completely went around the questions at hand. The question was " do you feel that an ATV/ORV park is consistent with the parks and recreation excemption for use on agricultural property". All the answers were it will be noisey, dusty and just a nuisance.

Thanks to all of you that came out last night. We had a full room with probably 15-20 people standing in the back to show support for KITM. Also, thanks to all of you that sent letters. The lawyer and the Hamilton Township Board had a lot of reading to go through before the meeting.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 09:58 AM   #46
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This is my opinion

1. The only way a fair decision, either for or against, is going to made on the facts and not on personal feelings is if the issue can be taking to another forum be it courts, county, or state.

2. It was very apparent that the board members had already made their decisions before the hearing. Also it was apparent that their decisions were being made due to their own feelings and opinions versus the facts at hand.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 10:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by nd4spd71 View Post
This is my opinion

1. The only way a fair decision, either for or against, is going to made on the facts and not on personal feelings is if the issue can be taking to another forum be it courts, county, or state.

2. It was very apparent that the board members had already made their decisions before the hearing. Also it was apparent that their decisions were being made due to their own feelings and opinions versus the facts at hand.

so if thats the case, then it seems like legally speaking you would have a shot at it. the township's proof of a "nuisance factor" dosent seem like it would hold up.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 10:47 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvynandhobbs View Post
The outcome is diappointing, but it was pretty much expected. 3 out of the 4 board members that were there have properties that adjoin the KITM property. I could tell as soon as we walked in that nothing the lawyer for KITM said was going to be listened to. I haven't talked to Dave yet today, but I'm pretty sure he's planning on going to court to appeal the decision. John is right though, they completely went around the questions at hand. The question was " do you feel that an ATV/ORV park is consistent with the parks and recreation excemption for use on agricultural property". All the answers were it will be noisey, dusty and just a nuisance.

Thanks to all of you that came out last night. We had a full room with probably 15-20 people standing in the back to show support for KITM. Also, thanks to all of you that sent letters. The lawyer and the Hamilton Township Board had a lot of reading to go through before the meeting.
If this is truley the case, the board members should have requesed themselves.......This needs to go to the next level. You need to start sute against them, (like the popular super store does to each township that they put their stores in). You don't have to go to full sute, chances are that they will come to a partial agreement with you. Its unfortunate, but this is what happens, when you have people in power, just for the power.

FYI........if you want to buy property in Algoma township, and do this park, you will definetly have my backing. Good luck on everything
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Old January 10th, 2007, 10:57 AM   #49
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The lawyer for KITM even provided the board with a noise study that was done by a professional company used by the DOT. Their information revealed there was more noise coming from tractors, chainsaws, generators and other farm type equipment than what was coming to the road from KITM park with several dirt bikes and trucks using the facility. This paperwork was just shoved under the other papers. The KITM even had drawings of where they would build a berm along the road to further the noise suppression. The people on the board are all 6-7th generation farmers that have had their land in their family since the 1840s and none of them want or will even consider change. I agree that the only fair way to settle the matter is to go to a court where they will look at the laws of agricultural zoning and what has been done in previous cases across the state. ATVs and ORVs are something the people there don't understand and aren't willing to try to understand.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 10:58 AM   #50
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[QUOTE=nd4spd71;374549]This is my opinion

1. The only way a fair decision, either for or against, is going to made on the facts and not on personal feelings is if the issue can be taking to another forum be it courts, county, or state.

2. It was very apparent that the board members had already made their decisions before the hearing. Also it was apparent that their decisions were being made due to their own feelings and opinions versus the facts at hand.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately,..........board members can do this, (within the confines of the law) because they were elected as representatives of the people. I'm not saying that it is right, but they can believe their feelings are a true representation of the public because of their election.

Also,........their is no law that I know of that say's a Trustee has to keep an open mind............could you imagine if certain people on this site, were members of a public office. May God help us all!!!!!!!
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Old January 10th, 2007, 11:18 AM   #51
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Quote:
could you imagine if certain people on this site, were members of a public office. May God help us all!!!!!!!
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Old January 10th, 2007, 01:08 PM   #52
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Quote:
The people on the board are all 6-7th generation farmers that have had their land in their family since the 1840s and none of them want or will even consider change.

wasnt sure, but i was guessing that was the case. i put that exact topic in the letter i sent hoping to address it head on -

i was raised on a farm in illinois and when i go back there you can see the areas that are flat lining because of the old mindset and the areas where farms have diversified and are actually doing good in the community and other wise.

also - when ive talked to the grumpy bastards back home, AND they gave me shit for leaving, i told'em i dont consider floating loans year to year at 1970's corn prices farming.

it got real quite after that.

different state - same people
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Old January 10th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #53
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It was definetly a frustrating thing to be there. I think that Dave and his attorney presented themselves in the best way that they could, however most of those peoples minds were made up before they got there. His words fell on deaf ears for those that voted on the issue, and they picked apart the points that his attorney and others made in support.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 05:53 PM   #54
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Someone needs to show them examples of the good it can do. For example the XPlex down in Portland Indiana is sorta the same thing. They bring in people from all over forthe rock crawls and stuff
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Old January 10th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheapThrillB2 View Post
well we just got back from the meeting


I thought the Township board members are supposed to be rather nuetral of their personal opinions and do what the township feels is best.
Hahahahaha. That's a good one. You haven't been to many of these meetings I take it. :miff:
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Old January 10th, 2007, 09:42 PM   #56
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nope, but i'm gonna start now in my own
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Old January 10th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #57
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nope, but i'm gonna start now in my own
This was the straw that broke my back at one of these meetings.

A builder wanted to build in the woods across from us a 100+ house subdivision in our town (we already had one subdivision that had only sold a dozen houses in 10 years time.....slow housing market). I rallied the neighbors and attended every planning commision meeting. After months of research the planning commission recommended against it. However, the night the town council met they ignored the commissions recommendation and approved the subdivision (they were even shaking hands with the builder before the meeting in the hallway). I even asked if they had researched how 100 houses would impact my well and they said "it won't be an issue". I asked if they had conducted any studies to support that position and they said "no, but we don't need to". They didn't like my response that they will be rethinking that if my well ever dries up.

I guess it really doesn't matter though. The 100 house sub was supposed to be built in three phases between 2000 and 2008. Today they are still on phase 1 with less than 15 houses built. Hmmm, I'm pretty sure it was pointed out to them that real estate wasn't moving in our area.

Anyway, just goes to show that there is corruption in every local government, sometimes even biting their own hand.
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Old January 10th, 2007, 10:19 PM   #58
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Wow!

You guys have been busily posting away!

Most decisions are made over a cup of coffee long before the formality of the meeting. I think it's like that most everywhere. You'd think they'd wait until after the facts have been presented though.

I sent my letter in on the 11th hour with limited information on the subject. I hope it added to the stack.

My letter:

Patrick J. Brower
238 Elm St.
Fruitport, MI 49415

January 8, 2007
Hamilton Township
PO Box 145
Decatur, MI 49045-0145
Dear Hamilton Township BOD:
This letter is to declare support for the Kids in the Muddy Extreme Farm by the Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association (GLFWDA). GLFWDA is a non-profit organization built around four-wheel drive vehicles, their owners, and the land upon which we use them. GLFWDA works to bring together these users and act as the region's voice to help keep our trails open, so that we can continue to use our land and enjoy these outdoor activities for generations to come.
The National Forest Service and Department of Natural Resources both acknowledge that ORV use is expanding at a rate beyond the capability of the public system. The USDA National Survey on Recreation and the Environment (NSRE), June 2005, by H. Ken Cordel, et. al., notes on page 15, that 1/5Th of Michigan’s population, or about 1.5 million persons are ORV participants.
This form of “Pay to Play” off-road vehicle park has become a very successful tourist draw in many areas of the country. There is a potential to increase cash flow into the local community. Gas, food, and overnight accommodations are only the first items in a long list of expenditures families could make on an outing to the proposed park.
Genesee County Parks and Recreation Commission has been operating a similar facility for over thirty-five years. I am sure they would be more than willing to answer any questions you might have for them, regarding this type of recreational offering.
GLFWDA views this as an opportunity to benefit the ORV community and Hamilton Township with one action. Please approve any necessary changes in zoning to ensure our mutual success.

Sincerely,
Patrick J. Brower


Big THANKS to those who attended the meeting!
Not so bad, was it?

It's easy to "Get Involved".
A meeting here, a meeting there, maybe a phone call or two, and suddenly you're making a difference!

( :chiefwoohaw: ) Ok, I'll step down from the pulpit.

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; January 10th, 2007 at 10:28 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2007, 12:55 PM   #59
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Glad to hear there was a great showing.

Sucks the way it came out though. I was assuming that was going to happen as every year for the small towns around there its the same people in the elections and no one is challenged for their seat.

Hopefully it does better at the county or even state level.
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Old January 12th, 2007, 07:44 AM   #60
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Letter writing time again. I got an email from Dave last night. His lawyer has asked for people to send letters in for a media blitz as they start the next round. Thanks for all of your support. Here's the email he sent me.

Quote:
Thanks again for your support and coming to our meeting. Now is the time for letters that state how disappointed you were with the Board’s decision and what a nice asset this business would be to the community and

clean family fun ect.

Herald-Palladium fax is 269-429-4398 and the Decatur Republic is

269-423-2411.

We would like these in the paper for next week.

Thank you again for your help and if you know of anyone else that would be willing to write a letter, we would appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Carol and Dave Stasiak
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