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Old December 8th, 2006, 12:52 AM   #21
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Seems like a reasonable price for dead hippies :tonka:
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Old December 8th, 2006, 03:16 AM   #22
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I think a big problem is that people want freedom. It's the reason there are so many 4wd SUV's on the road... They have never USED 4wd, but they like to know it's there.
The main reason people drive SUV's is because of marketing, the auto industry pushed the SUV market to the public through media blitz. There reason for this is because an SUV is considered a truck, which has higher acceptable levels of emissions. Back when the SUV craze started they were having issues getting automobiles to meet the newer lower standards that the EPA set for a reasonable cost that was based on units sold, pushing the trucks [SUV's] created a false number base to sidestep the EPA.

Just a typical case of the media altering the GDP's [General Dumb Public i.e. sheep] mindset.

Granted today an SUV is far from a truck, but per EPA standards it remains.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 06:06 AM   #23
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The latest-and-greatest just announced by GM is "Plug-in Hybrids". They are going to have two systems that allow you to use it as an EV until you deplete the batteries, and when that happens, a IC engine provides the propulsion.

This will give the people that want an EV a viable option, as they may never need the IC engine, yet for those who need more range, the capability is there.

All for close to the price of a conventional vehicle. Of course, this won't stop people from complaining that their electric bill increases $100/month (I'm guessing about $3-$4/for recharging).
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Old December 8th, 2006, 06:11 AM   #24
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Of course, this won't stop people from complaining that their electric bill increases $100/month (I'm guessing about $3-$4/for recharging).
IF it replaces $200-$300/month in gas, I'd call that coming out ahead. I guess we get to wait and see how the numbers fall on that one.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 06:57 AM   #25
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A recipe for disaster:

3-phase 300 volts
no replacement parts
no dealer service due to no parts
1 eco-nut with some radio shack parts trying to patch up their flux capacitor

Add it up, and it's a $3 billion dollar lawsuit!
ROFLMAO

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Seems like a reasonable price for dead hippies :tonka:
ROFLMAO even more:tonka:
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Old December 8th, 2006, 07:31 AM   #26
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IF it replaces $200-$300/month in gas, I'd call that coming out ahead. I guess we get to wait and see how the numbers fall on that one.
Don't get me wrong; I agree. What I'm saying is that automobile consumers will complain about everything (unless they are driving a toyota or lexus).
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Old December 8th, 2006, 08:09 AM   #27
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Don't get me wrong; I agree. What I'm saying is that automobile consumers will complain about everything (unless they are driving a toyota or lexus).
I can't argue with that.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 11:03 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MrBi11 View Post
The main reason people drive SUV's is because of marketing, the auto industry pushed the SUV market to the public through media blitz. There reason for this is because an SUV is considered a truck, which has higher acceptable levels of emissions. Back when the SUV craze started they were having issues getting automobiles to meet the newer lower standards that the EPA set for a reasonable cost that was based on units sold, pushing the trucks [SUV's] created a false number base to sidestep the EPA.

Just a typical case of the media altering the GDP's [General Dumb Public i.e. sheep] mindset.

Granted today an SUV is far from a truck, but per EPA standards it remains.

Not really true, its nothing with emissions, its sheer profit. Profit margins on small cars are next to nothing, where vehicles like grand cherokees, expeditions, navigators, escalades, profit can be $8,000-$15,000 per vehicle. One escalade might make more profit than 10 G6s.

For those few glory years, there was huge profit to be made in that segment.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 11:44 AM   #29
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i give GM 6 months before they start filling out paper work.
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Old December 8th, 2006, 11:45 AM   #30
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i give GM 6 months before they start filling out paper work.
I would agree if you had said Ford instead of GM
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Old December 9th, 2006, 08:42 PM   #31
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i give GM 6 months before they start filling out paper work.
$100 says you're wrong.
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Old December 11th, 2006, 04:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
$100 says you're wrong.


Nope Because Rick is an idiot, i am not going to bet any money except for like $1.

GM is doing horrible
FOrd is doing horrible


and DCX has the Car bank going again.


who knows, but this can't really turn out good for anyone.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 12:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Scottie View Post
Nope Because Rick is an idiot, i am not going to bet any money except for like $1.

GM is doing horrible
FOrd is doing horrible


and DCX has the Car bank going again.


who knows, but this can't really turn out good for anyone.
GM isn't really doing horrible. DCX is DROWNING in excess truck inventory. Ford is dead already.

GM I'd certainly peg as the best shape of the three.


Sad, that Ford does great things outside US. They make great cars in europe that sell extremely well. But here in the US they are tanking.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 02:33 PM   #34
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If you think GM is doing well then you must not have been to your Local Chevy dealer to see the toe tags err i mean Red tags on everything.


oh well i guess we agree on the DCX thing, i think i heard that somewhere in Detroit area there is a huge lot full of DCX cars, anyone know anything on this?
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Old December 12th, 2006, 02:47 PM   #35
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If you think GM is doing well then you must not have been to your Local Chevy dealer to see the toe tags err i mean Red tags on everything.


oh well i guess we agree on the DCX thing, i think i heard that somewhere in Detroit area there is a huge lot full of DCX cars, anyone know anything on this?
State fairgrounds..

GM is doing reasonably well in their turnaround effort..
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Old December 12th, 2006, 05:37 PM   #36
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I did.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 11:22 AM   #37
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I saw this and thought I'd bring it back. Go figure, they targeted GM because they are a big target. See bold below. Overall an interesting read.

Quote:
December 20. 2006 3:00AM
Mark Phelan
MARK PHELAN: Electric car killer?

Don't blame GM, Toyota exec says

December 20, 2006

BY MARK PHELAN

FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

"We let Toyota off the hook for how they subverted the program."
Chris Paine, director of the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?" Toyota denies it subverted the program.

GM got a raw deal.
It's the kind of thing you hear over dinner every week in Detroit, but it comes as a surprise when a top executive with Toyota leans across the table to make the point.

"The movie 'Who Killed the Electric Car?' was terribly one-sided," Ernest Bastien, Toyota Motor Sales vice president for vehicle operations, said intensely. "It was not balanced at all."

We were talking in Charlotte, N.C., a couple of weeks ago. I was there to drive Toyota's new 2007 Tundra pickup, and the change in topic was completely unexpected.

If it's not surprising enough to hear Toyota defending GM, try this on for size: The film's director pretty much agrees.

"We let Toyota off the hook for how they subverted the program" to sell electric cars because GM had a higher profile, director Chris Paine told me over the phone Sunday.

The automakers, of course, don't think they subverted anything.

GM's Saturn EV1 electric car and Toyota's RAV4-EV electric SUV failed for the same reason -- customers didn't want them -- said Bastien, who was point man for Toyota's short-lived effort to sell the RAV4-EV in California.

GM delivered about 800 EV1s to customers from 1996 through 2000, while Toyota delivered 342 RAV4-EVs in 2002-03.

The film, which suggested GM sabotaged a promising technology that could reduce fuel consumption and pollution, caused a furor when it was released earlier this year.

The movie also intentionally ignored Toyota's experience to make its case, Bastien said.

"We shared all our experience with the RAV4-EV," but the filmmakers intentionally omitted it, he said.

He said the movie's suggestion that GM "chose not to make money on a car people wanted to buy in California" is ridiculous.

"They spent a huge amount of money advertising that car in California," Bastien said. "People wouldn't buy them."

Toyota did everything it could to attract buyers to the RAV4-EV, too. It subsidized the price, so customers paid $279 a month -- the same price as the company's hit Prius hybrid. The price included an expensive home charging station.

Toyota used the same savvy Internet-intensive marketing model that fueled the Prius craze. It even gave its dealers a sweetheart deal so they could make twice as much selling a RAV4-EV as a Prius.

To no avail. Toyota sold about 300 RAV4-EVs in 2002, compared with 20,119 Priuses. Buyers waited in line for the hybrid. They avoided the electric car like it was a downed power line and Toyota, like GM, pulled the plug on the project.

"Customers are not willing to compromise on things they need," Bastien said. "They need cruising range. They don't want to worry about running out of fuel, and they don't want to wait five hours to recharge. The movie didn't give any consideration to that fact."

Filmmaker Paine bought a RAV4-EV, but he's not buying Toyota's explanation.

"I don't agree that they made a good-faith effort to sell the car," he said. "Their priority was the Prius. The EV1 and RAV4-EV were never properly marketed.

"Toyota was no better than GM."

Which brings us back to the original question: Why was the movie so much harder on GM?

It made a better target.

"GM handled it so poorly," Paine said.

His crew filmed protesters outside Toyota's offices, but the company's security guards came out and gave them bottled water and Toyota key chains.

GM, Paine said, turned the water sprinklers on protesters. GM insists they were timed sprinklers, and the protesters just happened to be there at the wrong moment.

Whatever the case, the GM footage was more tic, entertaining video. It made it into the movie. Toyota wound up on the cutting-room floor."I don't want to say that we picked on GM," Paine said. "The EV1 was the iconic electric vehicle. That's why we focused on GM."

Let me translate that: GM ended up in the crosshairs because it invested the most time and effort into its electric vehicle. The futuristic EV1 was designed from the start to be a revolution. It was the poster child for electric vehicles. The sedate RAV4-EV looked like just another small SUV.

GM declined to comment.

The nail that sticks up will be hammered down, as they say. GM was the nail. "Who Killed the Electric Car?" was the hammer.

And Ernest Bastien deserves credit for sticking up for the truth, regardless of hammers.
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Old January 2nd, 2007, 07:47 AM   #38
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I am all for diesels until the tech on the electric/hybirds is improved/perfected. Over 60% over the vehicles sold in Europe are diesels. My buddy has a TDI Jetta he can drive to Mackinaw and back to Bay City on 1/2 a tank of BIODIESEL.

I wish Toyota sold a diesel Taco in the US. I woulda got one of those.
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