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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:25 PM   #21
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I find it HYSTERCAL,,,that you think you have the answers to the domestic automotive industries problems


Do you get the POINT
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:30 PM   #22
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I find it HYSTERCAL,,,that you think you have the answers to the domestic automotive industries problems


Do you get the POINT
Hey, that's fine that you don't have any imput into the discussion that's cool but why rip on someones ideas if you don't want to share your own??

Lot's of people find me hysterical.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:32 PM   #23
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NUMMI is run by rotating teams from GM and Toyota, as they were from back in the day of the "Nova". Ironically, NUMMI is located in the old Fremont CA Camaro / Firebird plant, which had such shitty quality that GM shut it down.

What GM needs to do is:

1) Stop "badge engineering" and come out with real PRODUCTS. The talk about a RWD Impala is a move in the right direction.

2) Stop pandering to the dealers and lean out the product line - which will mean fewer dealerships that carry a broader line of products. For instance, I could see Cadillac dealerships, maybe Saturn dealerships, and then GM dealerships, that sell only the best product in each segment. No duplication and marketing against themselves:

Subcompact: Chevy Cobalt
Specialty Wagon-thing: HHR
Compact (Value): Chevy Malibu and Maxx
Compact (Premium): Pontiac G6
Sporty Roadster: Pontiac Solstice
Minivan: pick one, probably the Chevy (if they stay in the market)
Luxury Minivan-thing: Buick Rendezvous
Full-size Sedan (Value): Chevy Impala
Full-Size Sedan (Premium): Buick Lucerne
Trucks: Chevys
SUVs: GMCs
Specialty SUVs: Hummers
Sportscar: Vette

Dump the rest of the products.

That would address the product problem - that just leaves the crippling cost of retirees and healthcare...
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Thanks for the great suggestions. I agree with all of them and know they would probably work due to your "real world" experience.
i couldnt tell if that was sarcasim or not chiefwoohaw?

I agree with duffman. I would in addition to what he said kill the design by committe thing that is out of control at GM. They need CAR GUYS running the show, and need to design sweet as cars and make them affordable, NOT make affordable cars and try to make them sweet. Big difference. I think they definately have the potential and talent at GM to do anything, the corporate culutre dumbs it down, retards it, makes everything come out all bland and appealing to no one but old ladys, and rental car fleets.

Some stuff is unexplainable like their minivans. They are old as hell, redo them, still ugly and not even competitive after a mid cycle refreshinging (much to long of cycle by the way). The oughta jsut killed the minivan line if they cant be competitive. Far to many of GM's products main competitor is its platform twin at another division. When is this crazyness gonna end (see duffmans strategy).

Thats just a minor detail, from far away the big picture the big problem i see is short sightedness. From bottom to top, line guys only care about next pay check, dept heads want staff to justify their salary, and the big shots only car maybe two quarters in the future to bump up their stock holdings. Something long term needs to be initiated that makes EVERYONE care that the company is kicking ass in 10 years, in 20 years, other than their pension which they get no matter what for the most part. You shouldnt be able to be so appathetic and make a living thinking so short term, thats the problem. Then line guys only care they can go hunting or have money to go get drunk, the big wigs only care that the stock is up and if they want to jump ship they are still rich. No one gives two shits about the future.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:35 PM   #24
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So you want them to bust the unions and renege on the promises they made to retiries?

Thats aweful republican of you.

After the rioting dies down then the plants that didn't get sacked and burned you want to run like the Saturn plant, which was below the industry average in quality?

Much of the "just in time" stuff has been around for many years. The other "lean technology" is mostly because they built the plant fresh in a "green field" and had a special agreement with the union workers to get more flexible work rules.

But you've done nothing about the problem that you're still not building cars that people want, and you've pissed off the unions and old people, probably 2 of you most loyal costumer bases, and even if they still wanted to buy your vehicles they probably couldn't afford to.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:36 PM   #25
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They have recently dumped the mini-van line. I think they are designing sweet saturn cars. That new line up looks great!!

Edit: Not sarcasit at all. He has the experience that will make me deadly someday.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:47 PM   #26
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Hey, that's fine that you don't have any imput into the discussion that's cool...:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:




http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.php?t=28767
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:51 PM   #27
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MuddyButt You are now on my ignore list.

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So you want them to bust the unions and renege on the promises they made to retiries?

Thats aweful republican of you.

After the rioting dies down then the plants that didn't get sacked and burned you want to run like the Saturn plant, which was below the industry average in quality?

Much of the "just in time" stuff has been around for many years. The other "lean technology" is mostly because they built the plant fresh in a "green field" and had a special agreement with the union workers to get more flexible work rules.

But you've done nothing about the problem that you're still not building cars that people want, and you've pissed off the unions and old people, probably 2 of you most loyal costumer bases, and even if they still wanted to buy your vehicles they probably couldn't afford to.
Yes, there are lots of varibles and bulding desireable cars is a key and the new saturn line looks AWESOME but I think they could have kept the HHR (Homo Hot Rod) on the drawing board.

What do you think they should do??
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Old November 30th, 2006, 10:52 PM   #28
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I agree that we (the US auto industry) needs to stop "brand engineering". I think it may be even worse at DCX. They make every Dodge wear a but fugly hole with a verticle and horizontal cross bars, every Jeep have a 7 slot grill, and every Chrysler have some type of "shield" type grill. They don't allow the styling people to have any originality. Let the designers and stylists create products that people want rather than worring so much that they fit a certian brands "image"

I also agree that we shouldn't compete with ourselves, but you don't want to cut back to much. If you don't offer a vehicle that apeals to a certian taste in styling the costumer will go to another company that does.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 11:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
but I think they could have kept the HHR (Homo Hot Rod) on the drawing board.
I don't have number in front of me but last I heard those were selling great.

I'm not a business guy nor a management guy so I really don't know what to do on that end of things. It's simply not my area of expertice.

I'm a designer. Thats what I know. The problem in the design area is that they've been mostly taken over by "empire builders". Guys who judge thier worth by how many boxes are under thiers in the org. chart. This has turned the design departments into huge bureaucracies where nothing happens quickly. We've found that a small independant group of designers and engineers working outside of this bureaucracy can usually get things done 3 time faster than the same group on the inside working to thier rules.

I also think they need to reorganize their designers back into "platform groups" (meaning all designers working the same vehicle be in the same place and continue to work with that vehicle) rather than "comodity groups" (meaning that all designers working on a simular type of part are in the same place and continue to work on that type of part). From what I've seen you get a better product faster that way.

And finally, I think they need to make better decisions about future products. I've seen some awesome products and ideas get shelved because some managment person didn't want to take the risk, only to see a competitor come out with something simular and run away with the market.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 11:28 PM   #30
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I think the HHR would have done fine if released at a similar time as the PT. I have no idea if they are selling but I sure think that they are ugly

I also think the PT is ugly as well.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 11:32 PM   #31
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MuddyButt You are now on my ignore list.



:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:
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Old November 30th, 2006, 11:35 PM   #32
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I think the HHR would have done fine if released at a similar time as the PT. I have no idea if they are selling but I sure think that they are ugly

I also think the PT is ugly as well.
goes to show what you know about running an auto company. As far as I know both vehicles have been quite successful.
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Old November 30th, 2006, 11:38 PM   #33
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goes to show what you know about running an auto company. As far as I know both vehicles have been quite successful.
More of that point that I personally don't like it. But there had to be research done to see if there was a market for it obviously there is since both are selling well as you say they are.
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Old December 1st, 2006, 01:38 AM   #34
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Toyota's domestic plants seem to be doing okay considering they just put 1.8 billion plant in texas to build the Tacoma. Why can't GM have successful domestic plants?
It's not sucessful yet, they are delaying the launch to improve the quality. This goes along with a string of quality issues they've been facing in the past few years.

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2007 TOYOTA TUNDRA ON-SALE DATE DELAYED
Specialty-equipment companies manufacturing parts and accessories for the upcoming 2007 Toyota Tundra now have more time to get their products to market. The following WardsAuto.com article provides more detail on the new Tundra’s release date.

The ’07 Toyota Tundra pickup will go on sale in the United States in “early or mid-February,” not January as had been expected, the automaker says. The Tundra originally was set to go on sale in late 2006, then was delayed until early 2007, purportedly to avoid the distraction of the holidays.
“We won’t be adding that many Tundras to the mix” this year, a Toyota manufacturing spokesman said. “It’ll be a pretty slow ramp-up, and everything kicks in January and February.”

Gary Convis, executive vice president-Toyota Motor Engineering and Manufacturing, maintains Toyota will not “rush” the Tundra start-up, saying the automaker must make sure quality is a priority. Recently, Toyota has seen its quality reputation tarnished by a series of recalls and defects investigations involving its vehicles. Earlier this week, the National Highway Traffic Safety Admin. upgraded its investigation concerning suspension failures in older-model Tundras.
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Old December 1st, 2006, 06:59 AM   #35
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I believe another reason auto companies like Toyota are doing well is limited options. The big 3 give you sooooo many more options than most people care about.......and don't get me started on how fasteners have to change every damn two years......what the hell was ever wrong with hex and allen bolts........I'll stop there....it drives me crazy.
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Old December 1st, 2006, 08:12 AM   #36
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I work for GM, and have thought about these problems for quite some time. Alot of points have been made here. Some I agree with and some I don't. I'm not going to get specific. A topic that doesn't get alot of discussion is the loss of work to China, Mexico, exc. Also the taxes these places impose on imported products. It's been awhile since I read it, and I'm not sure who did the study, but similar cars both american and japan products were compared for retail prices both in USA and Japan. Here, the american car sold for about 8% more than the import. In Japan, because of taxes and tarriffs the US car sold for 37% more than the Jap car. Fair playing field? No!
Do to the last election, Most of us herd about the law in China that says if you want to sell it there you have to manufacture it there. A damn good way to keep your people working. I wonder how good things would be over there If we (the US) had the same law? I know one thing, unemployment here would just about disappear.
Just my thoughts, right or wrong.
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Old December 1st, 2006, 08:29 AM   #37
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Actually, the Tundra is being specifically delayed for updates to the Interior. But in general Toyota launches are being spread right now to allow more focus on each launch. They had too many simultaneous.



I'm not too worried about GM, I'd say they are the healtiest of the big 3 right now.

Ford is the one in the toilet, and they are trying to pull themselves out with the flush handle.


The bottom line, is they need to build product people want. THAT is the number 1 thing thats killing them.

What made Chrysler do well 2 years ago? The 300C, people love it, people buy it. What kills them now? Demand for trucks/SUVs is low, and they built too many.


Content is still the #1 factor, and seems to be what they refuse to acknowledge. GM and Ford gave up the market for minivans thinking that thye aren't cool, yet DCX, Honda, and Toyota still over 1,000,000 minivans per year. GM and Ford minivans were garbage, thats why they didn't sell, not because the US market doesn't like minivans.


Regardless of manufacturing efficiency, cost overhead, etc, if they don't design cars that people want, they'll still tank.

GM is moving in the right direction, chrysler is always a yo-yo. Ford seems to have an empty pipeline right now. Freestyle was a bomb, the new Edge is a Bomb. Mercury is an anchor, Lincoln has no unique vehicles and can't compete with Caddilac...

bleh, time for a meeting with Global Delta GM team....
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Old December 1st, 2006, 04:13 PM   #38
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I knew waaaaay more at 20 than I do at 42. Its not your words but your actions that demonstrate your knowlege.
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Old December 1st, 2006, 05:38 PM   #39
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I did not read all of this, but I did scan it.

Most of your "thoughts" are obviously regurgitated thoughts from your professors.

First off, LGR is not modeled after Spring Hill. It is modeled after Eisenach.

Second, please never mention lean manufacturing. You know nothing about it. Your professors know nothing about it.
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Old December 2nd, 2006, 12:17 PM   #40
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I did not read all of this, but I did scan it.

Most of your "thoughts" are obviously regurgitated thoughts from your professors.

First off, LGR is not modeled after Spring Hill. It is modeled after Eisenach.

Second, please never mention lean manufacturing. You know nothing about it. Your professors know nothing about it.
I expected this much from you to just put me down but not offer any insightfull information as to Eisenach or lean manufactureing or what you would do to help the automotive industry. I guess my management professor that worked for Toyota for 20 years before exiting into the teaching profession knows nothing about it either, which I would have to dissagre with you.

I would have hoped for a discussion on the thread instead of having the stance of "I'm so smart and chiefwoohaw is sooo ignorant" and most have given their thoughts which I and the rest of the GL4x4 community appricate. Then there are still a few that must prove how smart they are compared to me and I get it, and your super smart so do you think you could actually comment on the topic now?
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