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Old December 6th, 2006, 01:19 PM   #61
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Wow... I thought we had problems! :dunie: :dunie: :dunie:
Just because people debate an issue online, doesn't mean we're out to cut on anothers throat. The misinterpretation on my part has been cleared without conflict...
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Old December 6th, 2006, 01:41 PM   #62
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Just because people debate an issue online, doesn't mean we're out to cut on anothers throat. The misinterpretation on my part has been cleared without conflict...


And I applaud you for that!
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Old December 6th, 2006, 02:02 PM   #63
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Just because people debate an issue online, doesn't mean we're out to cut on anothers throat. The misinterpretation on my part has been cleared without conflict...
I wasn't referring to you, I meant the whole DNR conflict. We've got issues with the BLM and Sierra Clubs... but most of the stuff out here is/has been VERY thoroughly legally researched. I realized that the whole implied was a matter of facial expression and tone of voice not being translated through the written word. ;)

No worries.
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Old December 6th, 2006, 02:10 PM   #64
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"I HAVE A DREAM" OF A DNR THAT WORKS WITH US NOT AGAINST US :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:
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Old December 6th, 2006, 03:54 PM   #65
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Bottom line...DNR is hard to work with and apparently have the ability to enforce new laws at their discretion(sp?).
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Old December 6th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #66
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As you know, we are also responsible, as Trail Guides, to inform participants that some of the trails we are on are NOT always open through out the year, and we do get permission to be there.
Thats one thing I always liked about SnoBlind...the chance to hit a few trails and climb a few hills I'm not allowed to the rest of the year
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Old December 6th, 2006, 05:35 PM   #67
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Bottom line...DNR is hard to work with and apparently have the ability to enforce new laws at their discretion(sp?).
enforce hell , they make new laws at there discreation . < thats no joke by the way . Director of the DNR can write there laws with NO scrutiny that a normal law must face . Thats why i say most are not even constitutional if there were put to the test of law .
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Old December 6th, 2006, 05:53 PM   #68
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As a secondary note, GLFWDA hired an attorney to review the above documents and related laws. He told us we would be wasting our money to try to fight it.
Let me point somthing out about law Jim . If i file suit on you its cheap for me , defending is an exspensive deal . Apply this to permit issue . The attorney you talked with is correct from the stand point of trying to change that law , but turn it around when and if a citation is issued .

You claim it is unconstitutional , let them eat the cost of trying to prove it is constitutianal . Yes you incurre cost but burden of proof is shifted into there face there for putting them on the exspensive side of the trakc

Odds are they drop the ticket , thats when you have common law come into effect . The law in the end does not get changed , it gets rendered useless .

I also caution , you would have to pick your fight . A well organized paid event would not likely win . Take a club run of 30 or so and let them rite a ticket for that . Jury comes into play here . The jury will have trouble seeing any sense to a ticket for that but would see more logic to a permit for an organized group and it's possible the jury swings in there favor .

Got some extra money to spend ? Hire a " Jury consultant " there job is to tell your attorney which jury members to dump . Cases are won or lost at the juries hands .

Last edited by Grandman; December 6th, 2006 at 06:01 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #69
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I personally know of a handful of situations that have risen with running into the DNR. Situations where one officer conflicts another.

EX. When a DNR officer gives you an approved map and you are stop in an area on that map by a different officer and they either tell you to leave or get a ticket. Make sense? No. It's lack of communication or unity. The second officer just set a precedent and considered you trespassing even though another said you "could" be there.

Here's another one for ya'll ... if you need to put your vehicle in 4wd, even on a legit road, it's considered illegal.

How about if your on a two track that runs parrallel with a legal road, it's illegal.

You shall not travel up steep hills. (4 wheel drive.)

Basically if you can't drive it with a PT Cruiser, you can't be there.:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:

See how this conflicts each other: what if you need 4 wheel drive on that legal road?

The idiology of the DNR goes a long way.
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Old December 6th, 2006, 06:09 PM   #70
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The idiology of the DNR goes a long way.
Correct, the big problem with the DNR is most of the CO's don't know the laws or interpet them differently from what they where intended to mean.
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Old December 7th, 2006, 07:20 AM   #71
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Marv,
You are pretty much on track. The attorney told us that to challenge it head on, it would be a waste of time. However, if someone got ticketed it may be worth the fight. He also told us that we need legislators to help change the law. THIS IS NOT A NEW DISCUSSION. However, after the attorney general's reply that I posted above, my congressman told me there is nothing more he can do.

And keep in mind, with our state economy so screwed up right now, the wishes of a few off roaders is VERY LOW ON THE AGENDA FOR ANYONE IN GOVERNMENT!

The other problem is that for any group putting on a paid event whether it be a glfwda group or not, no one wants to create a situation where innocent people get ticketed. And if the run has had previous permits and then fails to get a new permit, the precident has already been set that the event must have a permit.

So, when a small group gets a ticket, hopefully enough people will band together to help fight it.
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Old December 7th, 2006, 05:46 PM   #72
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The idea of banding together is the real problem why nothing is every done . There is never enough numbers that stand as one .

It's often brought up about snow machines and what they can do , yes sir , and look at the numbers and degree of solidity they have .

The easest way to change this stuff ( but not cheap ) is a lobbyist in Lansing . Pay one of them hand shakers for 3 or 4 years and miracles happen .

Your situation in PM , Howie Hanft is your best bet to a resolution
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Old December 11th, 2006, 10:10 PM   #73
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Correct, the big problem with the DNR is most of the CO's don't know the laws or interpet them differently from what they where intended to mean.
id only have to imagine that alot of the dnr's job ends up being heresay from their memory.

when i think of the scope of things that the dnr is responsible for , offroad/hunting/fishing, there ends up being alot of laws they should know.

it doesnt make it right that they dont know how to their job though...

if someone wants to organize a permitless run consisting of more than 20 people, ill be more than happy to pitch in 100 just to help bring the cause to light.
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Old December 11th, 2006, 10:13 PM   #74
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i didnt post that last reply to be reckless either. 99.9% of you know more about the laws of offroading more than me. I go to public land that I know of on the westside of the state just because it was a way to get to a fishing hole.

I know nothing about the st helens area. in fact, we went up for the 4th to greyling and went on the orv trails and saw that there are full size vehicle areas but i cant seem to find out whre those areas are.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 04:07 PM   #75
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.....................................

I also caution , you would have to pick your fight . A well organized paid event would not likely win . Take a club run of 30 or so and let them rite a ticket for that . Jury comes into play here . The jury will have trouble seeing any sense to a ticket for that but would see more logic to a permit for an organized group and it's possible the jury swings in there favor .

When I first got into wheeling we appearantly violated the "law" because we had family trial rides on state land and our family groups often consisted of more than 20 people.

We were never ticketed or even approached by the DNR.

After being involved with GL4WDA and the legal issues faced everyday by OHV (Off Highway Vehicle....better name and acronym if you ask me) enthusiasts for a few years I now kind of want to get a nice big family group together as we did in the past. I think it would be very interesting to see how the courts would look upon this kind of situation. This would not even be a club run. All would be related by blood or marriage, but the group would have to be large enough to attract DNR attention. Keep the activities legal, accept the ticket with a smile and then hit the courts.

Anyway, nothing will ever get done until the state sees that we, OHV enthusiasts, are united by sheer numbers. And this is where an organization like GL4WDA comes in. Some choose not to join GL4WDA for whatever reason yet join groups like United or Rustbelt. But, you know what? I don't see UNited or Rustbelt reps names on the sign in sheet at the ORV Advisory board meetings, just GL4WDA names. The national associations have concerns that stratch across the nation, GL4WDA concerns are focused here.

So, if you want to change what we have, get involved. Individually, as a club, in an association. Just get involved and let the state know you are out there.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 09:33 PM   #76
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Pete I agree with you on the family thing.....and good point.

Like some else pointed out 20 people picking blueberries..........stupid rule.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 09:36 PM   #77
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x eleventy million, gazillion!

Your Club = Local level
GLFWDA = State level
UFWDA = National level

We all watch our own back yard and share the load.

If it's a local issue the Clubs should be doing it with the help of GLFWDA and UFWDA. If it's a State issue GLFWDA should handle it with help from UFWDA and, if needed, the Clubs. If it's a Federal issue UFWDA handles it and calls on the regional assns for assistance if needed.

It = keeping an eye on our trails and the issues involved with them
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