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Old November 19th, 2006, 09:17 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ron86toy View Post
you getting a permit for Friday Marv?:tonka:
personally I think you should have to get a permit for a profitable event...not an organized trail ride(we all pay taxes and hopefully all have orv stickers...wich I understand we dont need as long as your rig is registered and insured ...except for Silver Lake,Mounds ect.) .But still that permit should not be 3000.00,thats just insane....I think it used to be a flat 75.00 wich is more reasonable.
just my .02
You do have a permit! And it is a gayass pink this year.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 09:21 AM   #22
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The Bay City event is is called and is registered as the "Labadie Pig Gig". This is just another one of hundreds of "pig gigs" that happen throughout the country. Cincinnati's "Big Pig Gig" is the original and largest according Wikipedia. As long as it is called "Yogi's Pig Gig" in it's advertisements and literature, all is good.
thanks for clearing that up.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 09:46 AM   #23
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well as for whaty I know you could put it in a thimble. I know the law reads 20 people. the DNR says they can charge for fees. but if you want to go around the law then that would be easy, just divid your party into to groups of 20 and raffle out which area they ride or drive. that way you can't say it was organized. it was luck of the draw at that point because no one knew where they were headed.
the other way around the law is to become the law. get a sheriff to deputize you and we could then a be a possee. you could say its for home land security and we are hunting terrorists by searching the woods of michigan for illegal activity.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 09:47 AM   #24
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secondly if some one is the law in our un-organized events then they could be the spokesman to the DNR if they decide to show up and be dicks about it
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Old November 19th, 2006, 10:04 AM   #25
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the other way around the law is to become the law. get a sheriff to deputize you and we could then a be a possee. you could say its for home land security and we are hunting terrorists by searching the woods of michigan for illegal activity.
hummmmmmmmm Marv don't you know the law up in your area:tonka:
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Old November 19th, 2006, 10:16 AM   #26
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with all the 4x4 forums here in michigan and th eamount of people involved in it. Why dont WE start getting organized and get the backing of all these 4x4 enthusiasts, fabricators, parts suppliers and anyone else willing to get involved, let them know how many of us are part of the voting public. Get our local representative to listen to what we have to say instead of letting all the tree hugging dirt loving environmental extremists control where we go and what trails we can go on and how many of us can be there at one time. Dont get me wrong, I believe in helping to protect the environment, BUT I dont believe we should sit back and allow everyone NOT involved with offroading tell us what we can and can't do. If a collective of people call their state representative, and they receive enough calls about the same issue, they will realize that we are not a small number of people to be ignored. WE, the people enjoying the sport of offroading, MUST stand together to accomplish this.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 10:25 AM   #27
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Have you looked into THIS?

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with all the 4x4 forums here in michigan and th eamount of people involved in it. Why dont WE start getting organized and get the backing of all these 4x4 enthusiasts, fabricators, parts suppliers and anyone else willing to get involved, let them know how many of us are part of the voting public. Get our local representative to listen to what we have to say instead of letting all the tree hugging dirt loving environmental extremists control where we go and what trails we can go on and how many of us can be there at one time. Dont get me wrong, I believe in helping to protect the environment, BUT I dont believe we should sit back and allow everyone NOT involved with offroading tell us what we can and can't do. If a collective of people call their state representative, and they receive enough calls about the same issue, they will realize that we are not a small number of people to be ignored. WE, the people enjoying the sport of offroading, MUST stand together to accomplish this.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 11:12 AM   #28
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There are two sides to every story and the way I see it laws are put in affect for a reason: to generate revenues. As long as this country has been founded the government has demanded a cut of what you have. The laws the DNR follows were meant to generate cash. Where it all goes, I don't know. What I do know is the DNR (not all officers) could care less what happens to the land and water. They just want to write you a ticket. I wheel in Grayling a lot and have had one or two run ins with the DNR and was told to stay off the hill climbs (no tickets) and when I questioned about what their concern was I was told erosion was the problem. (not the first time I've been told this, its an excuse) I further questioned him about the military running up and down the hills with Hummers and tanks, I was told their protecting us so its ok for them to climb the hills. Umm I'm not stupid if their so concerned with erosion than no one should be tearing up and down the hills. I should of laughed in his face but I'm sure I'll get another chance. I think its a joke, have you ever seen what a mess a logging crew can do to a forest?? But there are millions to be made there so its ok?? I bet if The DNR were offered several million a year to lease the state land they would care less what you did. (within reason) Just my 2c

P.S If these are the issues:
A fee or donation is required for participation.
The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.

The answer seems simple, don't charge any fee, stay in groups smaller than 20 and don't organize the event. Make one post(like I'll be here on this date and if any of my buddies want to show up and shoot the shit and do a little wheeling) and who ever shows, shows.

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Old November 19th, 2006, 11:22 AM   #29
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just divid your party into to groups of 20
It would have to be groups of 19 people or less. At 20, you need a permit.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 01:40 PM   #30
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I sent the following to Rep. Joel Sheltrown, an ORV-friendly legislator who is working legislation to allow ATVs access to the shoulders of roads in appropriate areas, just as snowmobiles are. I'd advise everyone to do the same, and get the issue in front of their elected officals.

Representative Sheltrown;

Congratulations on your re-election. While I'm not a citizen of your district, I am very supportive of your efforts to improve ORV legislation in an effort to improve the quality of life for families (like mine) that enjoy the outdoors in Michigan. We are a family that enjoys exploring Michigan's forest roads (in our Jeep) and trails (on our ATVs) together.

In your update (on atvofforad.net) on your efforts to develop legislation that would address ATV travel on the shoulders of roads, you asked for input on other ORV issues. I have two issues with the current ORV legislation.
The first issue is with the definition of "event" as defined by R299.921 and referenced in R299.922:

99.921 (h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated, scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.


299.922 (m.) To hold events including, but not limited to, races, endurance contests, tournaments, or trail rides, unless the events are conducted
pursuant to a permit. The permit may include a charge to the sponsor or permittee for the use of the land. An event may require a performance bond to insure permit compliance and may require public liability insurance. The department may waive the requirement for a permit for events where the number of participants is 20 or more individuals if the department determines that the event will not require department oversight and the event will have a minimal impact on the use of the lands by others.


The concern is that it is very easy to end up with 20 or more individuals (i.e. ten vehicles with two persons each, or seven vehicles with three persons each in them ) involved in a casual outing on forest roads, which could then technically run afoul of the need to obtain permits, pay fees, and potentially obtain performance bonds and public liability insurance. The outings my family and I have participated in are only "organized" in the sense that several individuals and families will coordinate schedules allowing them get together, it being more comfortable to ride as a group and include someone with detailed knowledge of the area. They are not competitive or timed, and do not involve a fee or donation to participate. The "20 or more inviduals" seems to be directed more toward single-person ORVs, such as dirt bikes or single-seat ATVs rather than "full-sized" ORVs (such as Jeeps) that carry multiple passengers travelling on designated roads.

Furthermore, the basis upon which the DNR might elect to waive the requirement for a permit, or should a permit be required, establish the cost and conditions (i.e. bond, insurance) of that permit is left to the discretion of the DNR. I fully support the need to require permits/bonds/insurance for organized or competitive activities where a fee or donation is required for participation, as these large events may require the direct support of DNR resources.

If this legislation could be revised to exclude the casual use of existing roads (perhaps by changing R299.921 (h) to require that (i) and (ii) BOTH need apply) this would address this concern, while still protecting our natural resources and not placing a strain on the DNR.

Another area of R 299.921 that needs to be re-examined is the defintion of "forest road":

R299.921 (i.) "Forest road" means a hard surfaced road, a gravel or dirt road, or another route capable of being
traveled by a 2-wheel drive 4-wheeled conventional vehicle designated for highway use, but does not
include an interstate, state, or county highway.


(f.) "Designated route" means forest roads that have been properly signed on the ground for ORV use.

These definitions, as applied by DNR officers in the field, mean that it is illegal to travel a forest road (including county roads) or designated, DNR-signed ORV route that is judged by the DNR officer to be impassable by a "2-wheel drive, 4-wheeled vehicle designated for highway use".

This definition of forest road involves a great deal of subjectivity and variability, leaving the user in an uncomfortable situation. Just what are the capabilities of a "2-wheel drive, 4-wheeled vehicle designed for highway use"? My two-wheel drive Dodge Dakota pickup truck is certainly capable of negotiating a challenging section of forest road better than my Dodge Neon. What if I'm able to travel a challenging forest trail in my Jeep without using 4-wheel drive? What if a Dodge Neon can travel the trail on a dry day, but not on a wet one? There are people who no longer utilize the trails in Michigan, instead making the drive to trails in other states to avoid this very situation.

A better, more objective and clear definition of "forest road" needs to be developed. There are many miles of forest roads in Michigan that allow access to the beauty of our state. Those of us who enjoy travelling these roads would like to see this legislation revised to continue to allow our families access to the those "roads less travelled", without the fear of violating a subjective and undefined law.

Thank you for your time, attention, and efforts on behalf of Michigan's outdoor-loving families. Please feel free to contact me with any questions or comments. I am also providing copies of this to my local state representative and senator (congratulations to both on their recent successul re-election campaigns as well).
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Old November 19th, 2006, 01:45 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
I sent the following to Rep. Joel Sheltrown, an ORV-friendly legislator who is working legislation to allow ATVs access to the shoulders of roads in appropriate areas, just as snowmobiles are. I'd advise everyone to do the same, and get the issue in front of their elected officals.

Representative Sheltrown;

Congratulations on your re-election. While I'm not a citizen of your district, I am very supportive of your efforts to improve ORV legislation in an effort to improve the quality of life for families (like mine) that enjoy the outdoors in Michigan. We are a family that enjoys exploring Michigan's forest roads (in our Jeep) and trails (on our ATVs) together.

In your update (on atvofforad.net) on your efforts to develop legislation that would address ATV travel on the shoulders of roads, you asked for input on other ORV issues. I have two issues with the current ORV legislation.
The first issue is with the definition of "event" as defined by R299.921 and referenced in R299.922:

99.921 (h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated, scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1 or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.

299.922 (m.) To hold events including, but not limited to, races, endurance contests, tournaments, or trail rides, unless the events are conducted
pursuant to a permit. The permit may include a charge to the sponsor or permittee for the use of the land. An event may require a performance bond to insure permit compliance and may require public liability insurance. The department may waive the requirement for a permit for events where the number of participants is 20 or more individuals if the department determines that the event will not require department oversight and the event will have a minimal impact on the use of the lands by others.

The concern is that it is very easy to end up with 20 or more individuals (i.e. ten vehicles with two persons each, or seven vehicles with three persons each in them ) involved in a casual outing on forest roads, which could then technically run afoul of the need to obtain permits, pay fees, and potentially obtain performance bonds and public liability insurance. The outings my family and I have participated in are only "organized" in the sense that several individuals and families will coordinate schedules allowing them get together, it being more comfortable to ride as a group and include someone with detailed knowledge of the area. They are not competitive or timed, and do not involve a fee or donation to participate. The "20 or more inviduals" seems to be directed more toward single-person ORVs, such as dirt bikes or single-seat ATVs rather than "full-sized" ORVs (such as Jeeps) that carry multiple passengers travelling on designated roads.

Furthermore, the basis upon which the DNR might elect to waive the requirement for a permit, or should a permit be required, establish the cost and conditions (i.e. bond, insurance) of that permit is left to the discretion of the DNR. I fully support the need to require permits/bonds/insurance for organized or competitive activities where a fee or donation is required for participation, as these large events may require the direct support of DNR resources.

If this legislation could be revised to exclude the casual use of existing roads (perhaps by changing R299.921 (h) to require that (i) and (ii) BOTH need apply) this would address this concern, while still protecting our natural resources and not placing a strain on the DNR.

Another area of R 299.921 that needs to be re-examined is the defintion of "forest road":

R299.921 (i.) "Forest road" means a hard surfaced road, a gravel or dirt road, or another route capable of being
traveled by a 2-wheel drive 4-wheeled conventional vehicle designated for highway use, but does not
include an interstate, state, or county highway.

(f.) "Designated route" means forest roads that have been properly signed on the ground for ORV use.

These definitions, as applied by DNR officers in the field, mean that it is illegal to travel a forest road (including county roads) or designated, DNR-signed ORV route that is judged by the DNR officer to be impassable by a "2-wheel drive, 4-wheeled vehicle designated for highway use".

This definition of forest road involves a great deal of subjectivity and variability, leaving the user in an uncomfortable situation. Just what are the capabilities of a "2-wheel drive, 4-wheeled vehicle designed for highway use"? My two-wheel drive Dodge Dakota pickup truck is certainly capable of negotiating a challenging section of forest road better than my Dodge Neon. What if I'm able to travel a challenging forest trail in my Jeep without using 4-wheel drive? What if a Dodge Neon can travel the trail on a dry day, but not on a wet one? There are people who no longer utilize the trails in Michigan, instead making the drive to trails in other states to avoid this very situation.

A better, more objective and clear definition of "forest road" needs to be developed. There are many miles of forest roads in Michigan that allow access to the beauty of our state. Those of us who enjoy travelling these roads would like to see this legislation revised to continue to allow our families access to the those "roads less travelled", without the fear of violating a subjective and undefined law.

Thank you for your time, attention, and efforts on behalf of Michigan's outdoor-loving families. Please feel free to contact me with any questions or comments. I am also providing copies of this to my local state representative and senator (congratulations to both on their recent successul re-election campaigns as well).
:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:
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Old November 19th, 2006, 02:04 PM   #32
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:chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw: :chiefwoohaw:
if you are not here to contribute, please get out of this section.

when you get your next ticket for being a dumb ass think of this would you?
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Old November 19th, 2006, 02:21 PM   #33
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if you are not here to contribute, please get out of this section.

when you get your next ticket for being a dumb ass think of this would you?
x2

That was a great letter.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 03:03 PM   #34
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if you are not here to contribute, please get out of this section.

when you get your next ticket for being a dumb ass think of this would you?
I'm not a dumb ass and I have never received a ticket, in fact the DNR officers I have come in contact with thank me for cleaning up after all dip shits who dump there garbage in the woods and in the water. Know one asked me to do it, I'm happy to do it. I do contribute every time I'm in the forest. Do you??????? Writing letters is all fine and dandy but if you want to make some changes in Michigan you better have a deep pocket. Good luck to you. That's all from me.

P.S What response did you get from your letter??? Oh and how did your letter improve our resources here in Michigan??


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Old November 19th, 2006, 03:27 PM   #35
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as for me I don't mind people making quips about politics at hand. this section was put here for topics that most people don't care or want to contribute to. WE as users have the obligation to do everything we can to make our trails & lands more excessable to every user. so posting the "blaa blaas" in here is wasting everyones time & efforts. save it for the pub.

by the way if your so concerned about whats going on at the state level where were you at the last ORV advisory board meeting? I was there, I even meet Trail Fantastic and few other new faces. did you stand up and ask questions of the board & the DNR? if you did I must have missed it.
out of the 24 people that showed "half" were from ATVOC(atv offroad club) and the rest were from everything else from CCC on down. shows you right there whos going to get whats coming to them. if people would put out just a tinsy bit of effort they could get great results, but instead we are here on the net bickering about "blaa blaas".
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Old November 19th, 2006, 03:39 PM   #36
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as for me I don't mind people making quips about politics at hand. this section was put here for topics that most people don't care or want to contribute to. WE as users have the obligation to do everything we can to make our trails & lands more excessable to every user. so posting the "blaa blaas" in here is wasting everyones time & efforts. save it for the pub.

by the way if your so concerned about whats going on at the state level where were you at the last ORV advisory board meeting? I was there, I even meet Trail Fantastic and few other new faces. did you stand up and ask questions of the board & the DNR? if you did I must have missed it.
out of the 24 people that showed "half" were from ATVOC(atv offroad club) and the rest were from everything else from CCC on down. shows you right there whos going to get whats coming to them. if people would put out just a tinsy bit of effort they could get great results, but instead we are here on the net bickering about "blaa blaas".


I hear you but I think the DNR has heard it all before and I think we need to improve what we have now before they allow us more land to use. Action not talk! I would be out there picking up shit today if I didn't have to drive 200 miles one way.

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Old November 19th, 2006, 03:58 PM   #37
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well at this point we need to work together more then ever. the one thing I found was the fact we have a few reps & sentors that actually want to help our cause, they see the writing on the wall and if the manufacturing in this state goes belly up what will be left? just us and our natural resources. so if we can get a strong repore going now then when it does go bad we can still have our ability to survive basing the states economy on tourisum off the incoming ORV dollars. if the state could see past its short sightedness it would see we as users could create the intire infastructure without much effort. guys like Gman and his custom camp ground are just the first of many ideas that could be created to help us.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 04:06 PM   #38
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I think if you could get a few of those Reps.and Senators off the golf course and into a Jeep and show them how much fun it is we might have a chance.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 04:26 PM   #39
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I think if you could get a few of those Reps.and Senators off the golf course and into a Jeep and show them how much fun it is we might have a chance.

Thats a damn good idea. why not invite them to one of our events so they can get a feel for the sport. if they get more involved then they would be a huge allie in changing the laws to suite our needs. plus if the DNR treated one of its reps or senetors like they ussally treat us they would see first hand how out of control some of their officers really are.
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Old November 19th, 2006, 04:30 PM   #40
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I do believe that has been done.
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