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Old March 28th, 2014, 10:34 AM   #61
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I like your perspective, and I agree with you.

Can I ask, do you think that there has been an increase in force used by LEO's recently?

Do you think it is a problem, or do you think at this point things are still in good balance?
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Old March 28th, 2014, 10:42 AM   #62
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Who are you asking? I think you know my answer.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 10:46 AM   #63
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They should have shot him with the bean bag, Tazed him, Maced him in the face, and pummeled him with batons while the dog chews his nuts.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 10:49 AM   #64
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He had a knife. Lethal force is/was justified. Taser /pepper/beanbags are less lethal tools for people who are not a lethal threat.

Had they done one of those things and then he attacked and stabbed an officer youd be sitting here saying how they should have shot him.
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 10:51 AM   #65
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Who are you asking? I think you know my answer.
I was asking you. I was looking for an honest response.

I think that in most cases LEO's are justified with their use of force, maybe I'd even say 99% of the time. But I do feel like there are some instances where the use of force is being slightly taken advantage of, curious what your thoughts were.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:18 AM   #66
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No I dont see that. Ive been around for 13 yrs now. Ive seen no real increase. There are those who refuse to follow simple orders (usually some sort of mental instability) and fight pretty much every time. They usually also have multiple encounters with police proving they clearly dont play by the rules. The others that fight are usually on something (alcohol or drugs). Its rare a "normal" sober person fights because cops arent just out harassing the public for no reason. Contact with the police happens because somebody called us or you were doing something wrong.

These videos pop up in training quite often. Usually in most scenerios there are multiple cameras because they are a great tool. However only one angle, usually the one that makes the cops looks bad, pop up in social media and discussions persecuting the police come up. However ive yet to see where when viewed from other angles or when the whole scenerio was viewed the police werent clearly justified. Thats the reason why you dont hear of these cops getting fired amd criminally charged with every one of these cases.

The facts are simple. Police arent the gestapo trying to hold the public down. They are the public trying to stand up for the good side of society. They dont want complete control. They want people to have guns and make their own decisions. They also dont want everything to go to shit. They are stuck between the hard place of the entitled govt. and the public. In most cases, police side with the public opinion and are pretty conservative in nature.

I should add there are some wacko cops.
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Quote:
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Will someone please argue with me?

Last edited by oz97tj; March 28th, 2014 at 11:22 AM.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
And how the hell does one treat a mental patient with a knife differently than a normal person with a knife? Does the mental person not have the same ability to cut you?



No matter a persons mental state, the officers and everyone elses safety is of more concern until the person is fully detained ans considered safe. Until that happens everyone is treated the same. If you have knives and have shown the mindset and ability to use them and wont follow simple reasonable instruction to put them down then you get shot.

Lets not forget that the officers arent the ones who have closed the mental homes and eliminated that avenue for mentally impaired. They have only been tasked with the challenge of dealing with them because nobody else will. Fact is, a dangerous person is dangerous regardless of mental state and police respond accordingly.
Don't get your panties in a bunch

And no, you generally don't treat or talk to someone like that the same way you would a "normal" person. There are professional negotiators for a reason, because you can't treat every person the same. The same goes with mental patients, you can't simply tell them what to do and expect a reasonable response. You would want to play along with their delusion to your advantage; if that fails then you move on to what the officers did.

And it's pretty dumb to talk about a danger to other people, did you miss the part that he was in the middle of no where? You can't just say that he "COULD" be a danger, he wasn't in that instant and the officers were there because he was squatting. They didn't have a good enough reason to warrant their actions in that particular situation, he didn't attack anyone or anything like that that caused the officers to be there in the first place.

I'm not saying the guy was a pilliar of light for the community, but the officers weren't there in response to an attack; they were there because the guy was squatting. I believe they took the situation to far, whatever the outcome would have been. You can't do that because of something that might happen.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:32 AM   #68
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You watch too much TV. However, seeing as youre an expert why arent you a police officer?


ive worked all over the state. Never have I seen a department have a professional negotiator. Weve all had training but its all theory. Safety still takes precedent over everything else.

Oh, and did you miss the part that the police were there because he had cut multiple people already? And that the officers are people too and he could be a danger to them? Do you really think a highly trained tactical unit responds with long guns to a guy "whos only squatting"????
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter Ego View Post
Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Green again View Post
Will someone please argue with me?

Last edited by oz97tj; March 28th, 2014 at 11:36 AM.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #69
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One point your forgetting is if they let the yahoo slip over the hill and a innocent bystander now has a knife to their neck then what ? You have to keep the person there and end the thing.
Now if he was held up in a house it would be totally different they could wait him out.

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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:44 AM   #70
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Officers should have tranquilizer guns for mental patients.
If they can shoot them in the eye.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 11:52 AM   #71
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Quote:
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One point your forgetting is if they let the yahoo slip over the hill and a innocent bystander now has a knife to their neck then what ? You have to keep the person there and end the thing.
Now if he was held up in a house it would be totally different they could wait him out.

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Youre thinking bigger picture but youre not entirely accurate. If the guy turned and ran away from the police they cant shoot him unless they have good reason the believe he will put someone in danger. Just a "maybe" or even the presence of people isnt enough to shoot. The fleeing felon laws are fairly specific but vague at the same time. Basically it has to be very peobable he is going to harm someone else

In this video that doesnt apply anyway. Ive only watched it once but obviously the officers believed whatever he was doing was or was imminently going to become a threat to them so lethal force was used.
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Quote:
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Will someone please argue with me?
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Old March 28th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #72
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Should have shot him in the leg.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #73
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Thanks for the response Oz. I am still in agreement with you.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 05:05 PM   #74
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Oz= +10
Wave crusher = -10
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:05 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
I like your perspective, and I agree with you.

Can I ask, do you think that there has been an increase in force used by LEO's recently?

Do you think it is a problem, or do you think at this point things are still in good balance?
Could you attribute this "increase" to the fact that the internet is everywhere now and word travels farther and faster than ever? I am not arguing with you about your opinion but just something I too have thought about.

Is the amount of bad new on the rise or do we just know more now than ever? Would a story like this in the 70's even be heard up here in Michigan?
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:17 PM   #76
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Bingo. Social media is turning this stuff into big news. We are all more or less new to this as more and more cameras pop up everywhere so its a big deal and perceived as an increase in violence.
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Quote:
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Will someone please argue with me?
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #77
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WWW is definitely what makes the appearance of an increase.......it's a violent sick world.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:37 PM   #78
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Quote:
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Could you attribute this "increase" to the fact that the internet is everywhere now and word travels farther and faster than ever? I am not arguing with you about your opinion but just something I too have thought about.

Is the amount of bad new on the rise or do we just know more now than ever? Would a story like this in the 70's even be heard up here in Michigan?
Absolutely. I think that there is a perceived increase due to the level of social media and internet news outlets now available to us.

that said, I still think there is a small (very very small) number of LEO's who are using excessive force when not necessary, not something that I think is a problem yet, but an observation that I do think it is something to make sure we keep an eye on. I am more concerned about keeping an eye on it because of our current regime in DC than because I think there are bad cops out there.

Otherwise I still agree 100% with oz.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by wave_crusher View Post
Don't get your panties in a bunch

And no, you generally don't treat or talk to someone like that the same way you would a "normal" person. There are professional negotiators for a reason, because you can't treat every person the same. The same goes with mental patients, you can't simply tell them what to do and expect a reasonable response. You would want to play along with their delusion to your advantage; if that fails then you move on to what the officers did.

And it's pretty dumb to talk about a danger to other people, did you miss the part that he was in the middle of no where? You can't just say that he "COULD" be a danger, he wasn't in that instant and the officers were there because he was squatting. They didn't have a good enough reason to warrant their actions in that particular situation, he didn't attack anyone or anything like that that caused the officers to be there in the first place.

I'm not saying the guy was a pilliar of light for the community, but the officers weren't there in response to an attack; they were there because the guy was squatting. I believe they took the situation to far, whatever the outcome would have been. You can't do that because of something that might happen.
Today would be a good day for you to stop posting.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 10:32 PM   #80
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Absolutely. I think that there is a perceived increase due to the level of social media and internet news outlets now available to us.

that said, I still think there is a small (very very small) number of LEO's who are using excessive force when not necessary, not something that I think is a problem yet, but an observation that I do think it is something to make sure we keep an eye on. I am more concerned about keeping an eye on it because of our current regime in DC than because I think there are bad cops out there.

Otherwise I still agree 100% with oz.
Now we are getting into big "ifs" but if something large scale were to happen and the Fed govt were to try to turn the police against the public, I truly believe it would backfire on an epic scale. I know lots of cops, and they didnt become copsfor that reason. Often times for the exact opposite reasons. I honestly believe police would be some of the major forces fighting against the govt of it were to come to it. Most cops are gun loving freedom singing patriots and would gladly stand up to keep those rights. We are very type A personalities who dont like being told what we can or cant do.
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Quote:
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Oz's Jeep is downright anti-bling.
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Will someone please argue with me?
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