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Old March 20th, 2014, 07:25 AM   #101
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I'm, 52, I saw my school counselor, one on one, one time. That was right before graduation. I was asked if I had a plan for after graduation. Was a little late to be asking.
So now I tell every kid I see. Collage or trade school after high school.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 07:33 AM   #102
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Pardon me while I blame society with a quick rant.

Our school counselors and teachers need to stop referring to Vocational Education as a dumping ground for pain in the ass students.

I learned many critical skills beyond the CAD, machining and welding courses during my time at vo-tech. Skills like how to be prepared for an interview. Many of my college educated classmates never learned this. While they are flipping burgers and trying to figure out how to pay for their liberal arts/social work/history and/or english degrees, I have been gaining experience, training, and job knowledge in my chosen career.

There are many great careers out there that don't require a college degree and the massive student loans that accompany a degree. Our educators need to recognize and support these options.
The fact that Universities even offer some of these degrees under the guise of employment after college is an honest shame.

Just like vocational school, your degree and area of focus is only as useful as you make it by making it pertinent to your intended career path.

Sales/business - Econ/business degrees
Medical - Medical
History/liberal arts/stage/etc - Pastor, librarian
Engineering-engineering
Forestry - Forestry
Agriculture - Agriculture
General studies - unemployment
etc.

Same as in vocational, you train in machining you get a job in machining, cad - cad, electrician you become an electrician, etc.

I don't understand the difficulties (clearly you do not either) but society really seems to struggle with this concept.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 07:44 AM   #103
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No, we aren't on the same page.

What I am saying is that there are TONS of unemployed people out there with meaningless non technical degrees (we're on the same page there) but what you are not grasping is that the tech jobs you say are in japan or elsewhere, are here and we're employing tons of foreign workers who have advanced degrees (beyond bachelor's) that they have earned here, on our soil, at our universities, with grants from our gover................
Never thought of that. We're on the same page now.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
My generation (for reference, I'm 48) was also fed the idea that anyone with 1/2 a brain and any desire to get head in life should go to college. There was no alternative seriously discussed. The only question was which type of engineer will you be. (I dropped out and became a designer)

I don't remember anyone pursuing degrees in stage technology or Organizational Management.
You probably do remember people pursuing degrees in Business though right? Organizational Management = Business.

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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
The fact that Universities even offer some of these degrees under the guise of employment after college is an honest shame.

Just like vocational school, your degree and area of focus is only as useful as you make it by making it pertinent to your intended career path.

Sales/business - Econ/business degrees
Medical - Medical
History/liberal arts/stage/etc - Pastor, librarian
Engineering-engineering
Forestry - Forestry
Agriculture - Agriculture
General studies - unemployment
etc.

Same as in vocational, you train in machining you get a job in machining, cad - cad, electrician you become an electrician, etc.

I don't understand the difficulties (clearly you do not either) but society really seems to struggle with this concept.
Stage Tech was an apprenticeship program for the International Stage hand Union. If you've ever been to MSU (among many other places), went to a performance that wasn't Students, Union stagehands were behind it setting it up and running it. I stopped pursuing that degree because it wasn't a great degree to support a family with.

Organizational Management is a business degree. It's the best 'fit' for what field I'm already in and it can be used as an undergrad program to get an MBA. Which, if I feel is necessary down the road, I will be getting too.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 08:46 AM   #104
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Plumbing isn't a bad career either. It's never going to be obsolete, and they can't send it overseas.
This.

And I'm going to need a plumber, as long as said plumber doesn't mind a crawlspace.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 09:37 AM   #105
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Stage Tech was an apprenticeship program for the International Stage hand Union. If you've ever been to MSU (among many other places), went to a performance that wasn't Students, Union stagehands were behind it setting it up and running it. I stopped pursuing that degree because it wasn't a great degree to support a family with.

Organizational Management is a business degree. It's the best 'fit' for what field I'm already in and it can be used as an undergrad program to get an MBA. Which, if I feel is necessary down the road, I will be getting too.
I threw the pastor thing in as a jab

Stage Tech sounds useful to me, if you live in hollywood or are in New York, I guess Nashville, Grand ole Opry, and Vegas too.....but otherwise.....

Organizational Managemnt is fine, and MBA may help, but I was not referring directly to you or your degree, you are using them as you see fit. I was referring to college graduates and students in general to piggyback off what feva and others had brought up.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 10:09 AM   #106
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I threw the pastor thing in as a jab

Stage Tech sounds useful to me, if you live in hollywood or are in New York, I guess Nashville, Grand ole Opry, and Vegas too.....but otherwise.....

Organizational Managemnt is fine, and MBA may help, but I was not referring directly to you or your degree, you are using them as you see fit. I was referring to college graduates and students in general to piggyback off what feva and others had brought up.
I thought maybe it was a jab.

Anywhere you have major concerts you'll have union stage hands, for the most part. Most of whom know just about everything about rigging, lights, sound, carpentry, etc.

So what you're saying is most college students don't have a plan and think "this looks like a cool degree" with out thinking about the employ-ability of that skill set or what kind of options it will bring. That or thier expectations out of college (or even during college) are far to high (or sometimes too low) or unrealistic as to what they will be doing. When those expectations aren't met, they give up and go live with mom and dad. ??
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Old March 20th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #107
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I thought maybe it was a jab.

Anywhere you have major concerts you'll have union stage hands, for the most part. Most of whom know just about everything about rigging, lights, sound, carpentry, etc.

So what you're saying is most college students don't have a plan and think "this looks like a cool degree" with out thinking about the employ-ability of that skill set or what kind of options it will bring. That or thier expectations out of college (or even during college) are far to high (or sometimes too low) or unrealistic as to what they will be doing. When those expectations aren't met, they give up and go live with mom and dad. ??
That sums it up pretty well.

I think high school counselor's, parents, and universtities are all to blame.

A little forethought goes a long way.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #108
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You probably do remember people pursuing degrees in Business though right? Organizational Management = Business.
Not nearly as much as now. Maybe it was just the people I hung out with but I don't remember anyone pursuing a business degree.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 11:08 AM   #109
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Your wife needs to improve her skill set if she has people quitting continuously after 6 months. If they don't understand what the ladder is and what is needed to progress in the organization, she hasn't explained it very well and ultimately it's her failure. Sarry. Sometimes you have to look in the mirror if those working for you continue to fail.
This is well documented with millennials - her department follows the industry average.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 11:15 AM   #110
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When I was taking Linux IT courses, the instructor asked what sort of wages the students were expecting upon graduation. About half were expecting six figures.

He informed them that (in 2006) entry level IT was roughly $30k/yr.

Next semester, a lot of those people did not come back.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 11:36 AM   #111
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When I was taking Linux IT courses, the instructor asked what sort of wages the students were expecting upon graduation. About half were expecting six figures.

He informed them that (in 2006) entry level IT was roughly $30k/yr.

Next semester, a lot of those people did not come back.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #112
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Not nearly as much as now. Maybe it was just the people I hung out with but I don't remember anyone pursuing a business degree.
Huh, Interesting.


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This is well documented with millennials - her department follows the industry average.
I don't even know If I'm a "Millennial" but I sure can't stand them or the term.

It made me think of this video. Can't tell if thier joking or serious. Either way it sums up the attitude.

http://youtu.be/M4IjTUxZORE
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Old March 20th, 2014, 02:12 PM   #113
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Huh, Interesting.


I don't even know If I'm a "Millennial" but I sure can't stand them or the term.

It made me think of this video. Can't tell if thier joking or serious. Either way it sums up the attitude.

http://youtu.be/M4IjTUxZORE
It probably started as a joke. But unfortunatly it's the truth
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Old March 20th, 2014, 02:50 PM   #114
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This is well documented with millennials - her department follows the industry average.
This shit cracks me up. If you're constantly losing them because their expectations are too high, you haven't clearly defined the expectations during the hiring or orientation process. I don't give a shit what the documented industry average is. Fact is, they're about to be 40+% of the people in the work force so either figure it out or be obsolete. Now if only someone had written an article about how to keep them motivated........oh shit, google has that too.
https://www.capstrat.com/elements/do...nials-work.pdf
http://pando.com/2013/09/03/how-mill...uture-of-work/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mattmill...s-infographic/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danschaw...e-millennials/



"Why are companies catering to millennials?
Well, they're literally the future. Millennials are expected to compose "40 percent of the U.S. workforce by 2020," says Kwoh. Millennials are already gravitating toward corporations with more liberal policies, making technological companies, for example, a leader in recruiting young talent. "The challenge for business leaders today is harnessing the talent and drive of the younger workforce." As the workplace changes, companies need to reconsider how they lead people and "get work done" while they're evolving, says Ty Kiisel at Forbes.

What do older workers think about this trend?
They hate it. The demands from younger workers come "much to the annoyance of older coworkers who feel they have spent years paying their dues to rise through the ranks," says Kwoh. Call it a clash of generations: A 2010 study showed that baby boomers "cited work ethic, respectfulness, and morals as their defining qualities," while "millennials chose technology, music and pop culture, and liberal leanings."

Is this a good thing?
Perhaps. "If we're smart, we'll cheer them on," says Matchar. Americans work longer at the office than citizens of other developed countries, while wages have flat-lined and benefits have been reduced. "The modern workplace frankly stinks, and the changes wrought by Gen Y will be good for everybody."
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Old March 20th, 2014, 03:37 PM   #115
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So the future is no work ethic, no respect, and no morals, but lots of tech, music, and Miley Cyrus.

Never been so glad to be 30 years from dead.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 03:47 PM   #116
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So the future is no work ethic, no respect, and no morals, but lots of tech, music, and Miley Cyrus.

Never been so glad to be 30 years from dead.
You're right, if it's not done your way it obviously will never work........like facebook, that'll never make anyone any money.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #117
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I find society pretty funny....on one hand we tell society about all the health risks of being fat, and we market to it, health clubs, health foods, reduced fat foods, etc. The president and his wife get on board with healthier school lunches and what not. But then we tell people it is ok to be fat and to be comfortable with who you are....health risks aside. (just using this as an example, not as an argument for anything specific)

The old folks tell us we need to go to college and have a strong work ethic and work hard etc. Then they bitch about being with the same employer for 30 years who cut their pension and how they never took enough time to be with their families and pto and blah lbah.

So kids enter the workforce thinking I want a flexible schedule so I can see my kids grow up, I want to work for the companies that will pay me the most and offer the best opportunity for me and my family, and now we're told we don't work hard enough, we take too much time off (or demand too much time off), we don't stay with companies long enough to climb the ladder (instead we jump ship for a raise or more responsibility and a raise)......

Look at IT Professionals, if they don't jump ship to companies using the newest technology every year they get left in the dust with obsolete skills...management won't spend the money to upgrade to the newest versions, so employees must leave and go and learn the new version so that if the company goes belly up they can find another job. I'm sure much of the same goes for Medical, Engineering, Design, and other technologies....but thats no work ethic right bloomule?

Make up your fucking mind. Everyone wants to look down on the younger generation and tell us we can't have it the way they had it, or the way we want it, so what the fukc do you expect us to do?

I've been in the workforce for over 10 years now, still consider myself pretty green, pretty young, etc. Do I demand extra PTO? yes, my elders told me to negotiate for it. Have I jumped ship for more money because I could give myself a bigger raise than my company was offering in our yearly reviews? yes, do I have work ethic? I sure hope so, I've never ranked outside the top 5 in my region/division/group at any organization I have ever worked at. If I am a top performer in my organization why should I wait my turn for a promotion when another company is offering one up to me? You wouldn't hesitate to hire someone else who you feel can outperform me, why shouldn't I hire another company who can out perform you?

millenial shit my ass, if companies would deliver on all of the "promises" they offer new hires we might stick around longer than 6 months (I haven't moved that often but understand why some might).
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Old March 20th, 2014, 04:17 PM   #118
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Look at IT Professionals, if they don't jump ship to companies using the newest technology every year they get left in the dust with obsolete skills...management won't spend the money to upgrade to the newest versions, so employees must leave and go and learn the new version so that if the company goes belly up they can find another job. I'm sure much of the same goes for Medical, Engineering, Design, and other technologies....but thats no work ethic right bloomule?
A little context here....

IT is it's own game. I would consider anyone who doesn't jump ship often in IT 'fat and lazy'.
The work ethic I refer to is the people you run across that feel the just showing up merits something. When you are doing your job, you should do it to the best of your abilities, and then keep trying to improve your abilities. I am constantly researching and learning new things for my trade to stay on top of it.

I have left jobs when I could see no advantage to staying. I took a pay hit going to my current job at first, but it was better than staying at a place that I knew was going to fold.
Since hiring in 2007, I have been promoted 3 times, gotten 5 raises that I negotiated, and this last time negotiated more PTO. It was looking like I was going to have to jump again to get where I wanted, but I managed to make management see they were better off keeping me happy.

Don't assume you know me from dumb shit I post. Remember where we are.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #119
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Don't assume you know me from dumb shit I post. Remember where we are.
You're on my ignore list, don't assume my rant had anything to do with your post that I didn't read.
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Old March 20th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #120
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I find society pretty funny...
Sadly, I have to agree.
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