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Old March 13th, 2014, 06:30 PM   #21
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More specifically Beefy... I will not be buying a $300 WOD set until after pricing parts individually.......but I haz a lathe
He has a friend that has access to a lathe 24 hours a day... He just has to cross a bridge to get to him....
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Old March 13th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #22
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my old buggy had a pillow block directly to the shaft no slip between the pillow block and tcase. seemed to work good and hold up. However, my new one will be a fancy branik one with a slip in between the two. I think that is the best way to go.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #23
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OK, here we go. Hope the pics show what I have.

Back to the pics shown earlier where there is a U-joint on each side of the spherical bearing, I agree that won't work. Without a fixed shaft controlling alignment from the transfer case, it is allowed to orbit or wobble. But, with a shaft coming off the transfer case, it controls alignment.


From the front looking back. The output side of the carrier bearing has a yoke for the front driveshaft. There is a spacer behind the yoke to clamp up the inner race of the bearing.


Front looking back, you can see the slip spline between the transfer case and the carrier bearing. This is necessary because the bearing is attached to the frame and any engine torque will have some change in length. Also note that the carrier bearing is spherical, so as any motion on the motor/trans mounts changes, the bearing can allow for misalignment.



Standing directly under the trans, front is to the right. the shaft going through the carrier bearing is a stub splined shaft that the yoke slips on to and tightens up with a nut. At the left side is a short tube adapter that joins the fixed spline on the right and the slip spline on the left. This is a pretty good pic that shows the misalignment where the spherical bearing is important. Not having any spherical swivel ability is my opinion of why the Timken style bearings have problems.



And the slip spline between the transfer case and the carrier bearing.


And then to Beefy's question about drop angle. 30 degrees at full droop. Note that the back of the driveshaft is fairly close to frame end link joint. This makes the motion of the driveshaft fairly close to the motion of the link and doesn't require much telescoping. You can see that there is only about 1 1/2" of shaft telescoping at full droop.



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Last edited by whiterhino; March 13th, 2014 at 07:59 PM.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mr. Beefy View Post
Ok thats how I ran mine last time and had failure within the first 5 runs.

Reading the link that Feva posted this was the reason.



So after reading all that I think I may end up buying a high $$ wide open designs bearing
Look at that design and look at mine. They are NOT the same.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 08:06 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mr. Beefy View Post
I just called wide open designs all three of these have dual bearings inside of them.

http://www.wideopendesign.com/Catego...rivetrain.aspx
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Originally Posted by bigbchevy View Post
I got the first one
Are those Timken, spherical or rubber? Of the 3 options, I would NOT use a Timken.
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Old March 13th, 2014, 10:04 PM   #26
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I like that setup, Jim. If I ever have to go to a 2 piece driveshaft I'd like to do it similarly to that. It looks like I can (hopefully) get away with a 1 piece driveshaft with my current powertrain, but who knows what the future holds. Who made the custom driveshaft parts for yours?
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Old March 14th, 2014, 07:00 AM   #27
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Originally High Angle. When I swapped in the Atlas, I had to shorten the rear section. You will notice 3 welds on it. The end welds are OEM. I cut the center out of the tube & turned an alignment plug & welded it back together.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 08:13 AM   #28
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Thanks for the pics Jim, good writeup, I need to see what parts I have laying around. I think I only need to buy one more yoke
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Old March 14th, 2014, 08:21 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Are those Timken, spherical or rubber? Of the 3 options, I would NOT use a Timken.
im not sure what they are I just know a LOT of guys use them with out a problem so I just thought that would be the way to go
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Old March 14th, 2014, 08:46 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by bigbchevy View Post
im not sure what they are I just know a LOT of guys use them with out a problem so I just thought that would be the way to go
Here's my thoughts,
If it is a spherical, you need to do what I did. (or some variation)
If it is a Timken, you need an extra yoke like the pics from Pirate that Feva posted.
Any way you shake it, you must allow for both misalignment and telescoping BUT alignment must be controlled.

Oh, and one edit from above, the spacer on the carrier bearing is on the back side, not on the yoke side.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 08:54 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Here's my thoughts,
If it is a spherical, you need to do what I did. (or some variation)
If it is a Timken, you need an extra yoke like the pics from Pirate that Feva posted.
Any way you shake it, you must allow for both misalignment and telescoping BUT alignment must be controlled.

Oh, and one edit from above, the spacer on the carrier bearing is on the back side, not on the yoke side.
Correct about the Timken set up, you need another yoke and a slip

from what I was told you need to have the yokes on the carrier bearing (Timken set up) on the same degree as the drive train both side to side and up and down. as long as that is the same you can run it off set (misaligned) side to side or up and down all you want.

So if your drive train runs a 3 degree angle down that carrier set up needs to run the same 3 degree's and or if the drivetrain sits offset 2 degrees side to side in the chassis the carrier bearing needs to do the same so its a duplicate image of how the drive train sits, as long as that's the same it does not matter about drive shaft misalignment from a vibration stand point.

thats how I understood it to be anyways... Ill find out in another year when I actually get driveshafts in mine...

Last edited by trailrail302; March 14th, 2014 at 09:09 AM.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:28 AM   #32
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why do u need slip in the first piece of the shaft? may be ignorant but ive always wondered about this.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:30 AM   #33
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why do u need slip in the first piece of the shaft? may be ignorant but ive always wondered about this.
from the drive train moving when you hit the skinny peddle
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:31 AM   #34
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:32 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchedtj99 View Post
why do u need slip in the first piece of the shaft? may be ignorant but ive always wondered about this.
if the Timken style carrier bearing is fixed and welded or hard mounted to the frame and there is no slip between the carrier bearing and the t-case it will bind/crash under normal drivetrain flex. its there to take up any slight drivetrain to frame flex.

Last edited by trailrail302; March 14th, 2014 at 09:40 AM.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:41 AM   #36
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Correct about the Timken set up, you need another yoke and a slip

from what I was told you need to have the yokes on the carrier bearing (Timken set up) on the same degree as the drive train both side to side and up and down. as long as that is the same you can run it off set (misaligned) side to side or up and down all you want.

So if your drive train runs a 3 degree angle down that carrier set up needs to run the same 3 degree's and or if the drivetrain sits offset 2 degrees side to side in the chassis the carrier bearing needs to do the same so its a duplicate image of how the drive train sits, as long as that's the same it does not matter about drive shaft misalignment from a vibration stand point.

thats how I understood it to be anyways... Ill find out in another year when I actually get driveshafts in mine...
This is true for any spider type joint..... for optimum vibration elimination, all shafts should be parallel. Not in line, but parallel. that and the yokes should be phased properly too. This is why when a person tilts their rear pinion up towards the transfer cast that they need a double cardan joint at one end of the driveshaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trailrail302 View Post
if the Timken style carrier bearing is fixed and welded or hard mounted to the frame and there is no slip between the carrier bearing and the t-case it will bind/crash under normal drivetrain flex. its there to take up any slight drivetrain to frame flex.
Doesn't matter if it is Timken or Ball/Spherical design. Still needs to allow for change in length of line as the motor/trans torques.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 09:44 AM   #37
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I never had slip in my intermediate shaft of the old buggy and I had a pillow block set up like yours


EDIT: wow,I cant believe I found old build pics...lol


Last edited by trailrail302; March 14th, 2014 at 10:00 AM.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 10:47 AM   #38
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So if I'm reading this right:
http://www2.dana.com/expertforms/dep...px?part=923365
Items 5-9 would be the midship tube shaft, and 1410 yoke. The bearing can be replaced with a 40mm ID mounted bearing of some sort. Pillow block or mounted bearing from $20 to $600 depending on how much you want to spend on it.
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products...endingMachine=

Can cross reference the yoke on spicers site or here for the 1410 stuff, not sure what style you need.
http://www.oilfieldsupply.com/produc...pid=2070&cid=0

The 211359X center bearing assembly is what is used by the spicer loadout so that's an option too. I think that's similar to what CTM&MB is running right now.
http://www.drivetrainamerica.com/p-5...ring-ford.aspx
http://www2.dana.com/pdf/J300-P9A.pdf pg 12
It's all in how much looking you want to do I guess.
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Old March 14th, 2014, 10:52 AM   #39
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I never had slip in my intermediate shaft of the old buggy and I had a pillow block set up like yours


EDIT: wow,I cant believe I found old build pics...lol

I believe that can cause a problem. No matter how slight, the distance from the frame/carrier bearing to the output of the t-case will change. Not to mention frame flex. I think that puts added stress on the components. Enough to be a problem? Maybe not, but some....
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Old March 14th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #40
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yeah it makes sense to have a slip in it maybe I was lucky, or maybe because I ran stock mounts with a lot of give it helped? who knows, but I ran it that way for 7 years with no failures. vibrations...yes due to that....I don't know. and to my knowledge it is still getting ran that way and its part of the 1% group now....

The rzr has a 2 piece front with pillow block I dont think that has a slip either...hummm I'm curious now Ill have to look...

either way Im not saying its right or wrong but that was how mine was and it worked for me. Pretty certain the new one will be a Timken set up with a slip.

Last edited by trailrail302; March 14th, 2014 at 11:38 AM.
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