Vehicle Dynamic / Traction Controls ??? - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Talk > Axle Tech
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 7th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #1
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default Vehicle Dynamic / Traction Controls ???

Hello Everyone,
Can anyone tell me how well or poorly modern Vehicle Dynamic / Traction controls (the ones that electronically apply the brake to one spinning wheel) compare to Viscous Limited Slip, Torsen / TrueTrac, and Lockable differentials for travel in deep snow.

I'm in the market for a new 4x4 / AWD SUV and there are many permutations of power trains out there in the SUV marketplace including ones with selectable Low-Range in the center diff / transfer case. I have experience with many configurations, but none with these modern electronic braking systems.

I know from reading some older posts that the forum members here have a variety of vehicles and configurations and I was hoping someone had some comparison experience with Vehicle Dynamic / Traction controls.

Thanks in advance for whatever insight you can share.
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old March 7th, 2014, 07:14 PM   #2
in2deep
Hole tester
 
Join Date: 05-06-10
Location: muskegon,mi
Posts: 1,281
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

well they work pretty good for a mall crawler. what are you planning on doing it with it

what are you looking at a jeep or something like GL merc
in2deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 12:05 AM   #3
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Hello in2deep,

A family member has a job that wants them at work no matter whether there's 2 feet of snow on the road unplowed or a Tornado ripping up homes. :) 50 mile highway Trek.

Candidates are: Kia Sorrento V6, Hyundai Santa Fe Sport Turbo 4cyl, Mazda CX-5 4cyl, Subaru Forester Turbo 4cyl, Ford Edge V6, Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk V6.

I'd really like to buy American, but Ford and Chrysler have shafted me in the past when it comes to repairs and the Edge does not have a great reliability record. The Jeep is brand new and they have been having problems with electrical and the 9 speed tranny. The Subaru only comes with CVT, ugh!

But my main concern is being able to negotiate deep snows. We have had 12 storms in 12 weeks. It has been misery. The sub freezing temps have led to a lot of icing even after plowing.

Whatever I get it has to go in snow. The Jeep has the low range and a rear locker which sounds very nice. Subaru used to have viscous limited slip rear years ago, but they abandoned it for electronic traction control. I've been trying to find out what system the Ford, Kia, Hyundai, and Mazda use, but it is like asking a child what is inside a lollipop. The just say its good, no details available.

But I hope to find out the answers eventually and I thought that the off-roaders here would be able to tell me which system (Electronic Traction Braking, Viscous Limited Slip, Torsen / TrueTrac, or Locker) is really the best for snow traction.

Thanks for whatever advice you can offer.
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 03:20 AM   #4
Klumpper
Fuck Cancer!
 
Join Date: 08-26-09
Location: Howell
Posts: 459
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

In my experience, deep snow = traction control off with these newer vehicles. Snow requires some wheel slip to keep the treads clear, and the 'brains' tapping the brakes for you prevents them from cleaning out. Of course, once you get on ice, the braking/traction control helps keep the car planted. Also unfortunately, more and more it's being required to have these stabilitrack/traction/nanny systems. Make sure you can disable them to some level or change them to a deep snow mode.

My manager has a BMW 335D, and didn't believe me until he was stuck in the opening to his building. After turning the nanny off and letting them spin, he was able to push through the pile built up by plows.

Whatever route you choose, remember, only the rubber meets the road, and many decades people drove around open diff rear wheel drive cars and trucks without fancy controls and accomplished what they needed to. Wide tires with short sidewalls suck in the snow, unfortunately most new vehicles are going this way for 'Style and appearance'.

Another co-worker has a Edge his wife drives 40k+ miles a year, and it's been reliable for them. Considered a GMC Terrain or Buick Encore?
Klumpper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 06:04 AM   #5
Wehan
Senior Member
 
Wehan's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-07-06
Location: Charlotte, MI
Posts: 2,776
iTrader: (25)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Traction control off in deep snow, and off in light snow when taking off then back on when up to speed. I drive brand new caddie ats and cts all day for my job, they will get stuck in an inch of snow with traction control on, turn it off to get moving but once moving I turn it back on to keep me straight and on course.
__________________
Wehan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 11:30 AM   #6
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Thank you Klumpper and Wehan for the replies.

It sounds like the various types of limited slip or lockers are a better bet against getting stuck in snow.

I am glad to hear the Edge has been good for your friend. The Terrain has too large a turning circle (40 ft.) for me to get into my parking area. It is a very sharp and narrow turn. The Encore has a lower ground clearance than the other 6 SUV's I was considering so I figured that I should try to get something that has a lot of ground clearance to get over the more shallow snow falls.

I bet a lot of people get stuck with the Traction Control on not understanding what to do. When I was young the only computer in the car was the one between your ears. :)
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 01:12 PM   #7
fordbronco
nanna
 
fordbronco's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-22-11
Location: Marlette/Flint
Posts: 6,789
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDrivenWheels View Post
the Edge does not have a great reliability record.
Everyone that I know that has one loves them and have had little to no issues. They aren't fun to do a tune up on, but then again, a lot of fwd 6 cyl cars aren't fun either.
fordbronco is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 02:24 PM   #8
in2deep
Hole tester
 
Join Date: 05-06-10
Location: muskegon,mi
Posts: 1,281
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

all but the jeep is not really a suv more of crossover, that said they all suck with the tires they come with from the dealer. my opinion is the jeep + nice set of snow tires. like others said traction control can get you stuck
in2deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #9
BeaverTown
Cuck Fancer
 
BeaverTown's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-19-09
Location: Hemlock, MI
Posts: 1,304
iTrader: (17)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via Yahoo to BeaverTown
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fordbronco View Post
Everyone that I know that has one loves them and have had little to no issues. They aren't fun to do a tune up on, but then again, a lot of fwd 6 cyl cars aren't fun either.
My fiance had a 2010 when we met and that thing was a pile. 37,000 miles on it and it was falling apart. Mostly electrical gremlins, but no help whatsoever from Ford when at 36,020 miles the vista roof motor started on fire.
BeaverTown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 06:14 PM   #10
fordbronco
nanna
 
fordbronco's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-22-11
Location: Marlette/Flint
Posts: 6,789
iTrader: (2)
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeaverTown View Post
My fiance had a 2010 when we met and that thing was a pile. 37,000 miles on it and it was falling apart. Mostly electrical gremlins, but no help whatsoever from Ford when at 36,020 miles the vista roof motor started on fire.
There are always exceptions to everything.
fordbronco is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 06:21 PM   #11
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Thank you for the replies fordbronco, in2deep, and BeaverTown.

It seems like Traction Control and snow only go well together when you are in motion. Using TC instead of limited slip or a locker is apparently a financial decision on the part of the manufacturers not a commonsense one. Sad.

Snow tires a definite requirement whatever vehicle they're on. No debate there.

I have made ample use of low range + center diff locked over the years, so I do see the appeal of the Cherokee.

The Edge certainly has the appeal of the largest engine. Some people have better luck with it, and some less so. That's probably true of any vehicle. I don't know the actual numbers though.

Since it seems like TC is no substitute for a limited slip or locker, I am curious whether the locker is the preferred diff for snow or a limited slip like the TrueTrac. I have successfully used the viscous type of limited slip in deep snow, and I have spun out with the old fashioned clutch pack limited slips when hitting ice. But I have not had the pleasure of using a locker or Torsen style diff. Does anyone have positives or negatives they would be willing to share?
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 08:40 PM   #12
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Have an Edge and love it. Would buy another one in a heartbeat.
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 10:40 PM   #13
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullhed78 View Post
Have an Edge and love it. Would buy another one in a heartbeat.
Could you tell me please whether the Edge's limited slip transfer case is a viscous type, Torsen type, or Multiplate magnetic clutch and
whether the front and rear diffs are just traction controlled or if they are limited slip or lockable?
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #14
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

To give people a better idea why I am asking these questions.

Here is a Trailhawk with the lockable rear differential
moving


Here is the Limited without lockable rear differential
stuck

It is not an identical test. The snow is visibly deeper for the Limited, but I think you get the general concern I have.
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #15
Bullhed78
Senior Member
 
Bullhed78's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-11-11
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 889
iTrader: (10)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDrivenWheels View Post
Could you tell me please whether the Edge's limited slip transfer case is a viscous type, Torsen type, or Multiplate magnetic clutch and
whether the front and rear diffs are just traction controlled or if they are limited slip or lockable?
I have no idea. You are asking questions that are way above my pay grade. LoL. It is my wife's daily driver and I feel confident that she is safe driving it in the snow. All I know about the traction control is that it works very good. I have turned it off before to play around (it won't do doughnuts while TC is on) but she has been instructed to always leave it on. When the traction control is off the car easily spins tires causing it to want to "ski" in a straight line rather than turn.

Edit: After watching the videos you posted I believe what your expectations of traction control and mine are are completely different. All I want is for my wife to be safe on the road. It sounds like you are more worried about an off-road type of application. Sorry I wasn't much help.

Last edited by Bullhed78; March 9th, 2014 at 08:40 AM.
Bullhed78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2014, 09:30 AM   #16
in2deep
Hole tester
 
Join Date: 05-06-10
Location: muskegon,mi
Posts: 1,281
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

in the to vids I not really sure a locker is going to help as a point the snow just gets to deep and it gets piled up under the jeep and takes the weight off the tires. just to give a idea I have a lowered caprice frame is so low no floor jack will fit under the front of the car but with snow tires I can and have gone through 14 inches of snow well over a mine to get to a main road, driver also has a lot to do with it. 2 feet of snow is a lot for any small to mid size suv.
in2deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2014, 02:49 PM   #17
FourDrivenWheels
Newbie
 
Join Date: 03-07-14
Location: NY NY
Posts: 7
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Dear Bullhed78, thanks for your reply. No worries. Even the companies that manufacture these Crossovers/ SUV's don't seem to know what's in the drivetrain. I guess I need to ask the guy/gal on the assembly line putting them together. :)

I too want whichever one of us is out there to be safe on road if it is snowy. But I know from years of experience that someone is going to need to go out when they really shouldn't. Either a boss says "Flintstone, I want you in that quarry!" "But Mr. Slate there's 18" of snow on the road!" "Flintstone, get to work or you're fired." Or it's "Hi, I'm stuck out here. Can you come and get me?"
Or it's "Hi, I'm at the ER with ______, it is not looking good. Can you get here soon." I've had to deal with all of those unfortunately.

Dear in2deep, thanks for your reply. I agree 100% that good tires and an experienced driver can really mean the difference between go or no. And yes getting high centered can stop anything short of a metal track military vehicle. But I remember the horrifying sound of my youth of spinning tires screaming against icy snow in the winter from all of the RWD vehicles with open carrier differentials. It haunts my sleep in wintertime. :) I just figure if I do everything I can short of buying a military grade HumVee, which would unfortunately not clear my turn into parking :) at least I know I did my best.
FourDrivenWheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Talk > Axle Tech

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:44 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.34875 seconds with 72 queries