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Old November 7th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #141
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Context, Mike context.
I guess that's the difference between you and I, I don't think there is ANY context that would lead me to believe that it's ok to slaughter a group of women because they've had sex and keep young girls as my own.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 07:19 AM   #142
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So there are situations where murder and sexual slavery is OK in Gods eyes?
Obviously it is ok in God's eyes, he commanded it. It's not ok in my eyes, therefore, to me, I have superior morals to the Christian "God".
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Old November 7th, 2013, 08:11 AM   #143
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Obviously it is ok in God's eyes, he commanded it. It's not ok in my eyes, therefore, to me, I have superior morals to the Christian "God".
I admit I was not familiar with Numbers 31:17 until this post. So I went back and read all of Numbers 31 to understand the context. Here is what I take from this:

The Israelites went to war with the Midianites and were to kill all the men per God's instruction. Why? We're about to find out.

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man.

"The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses "

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.


My comments:
As a biochemist...This sounds like a very precise description of a way to contain a sexually transmitted plague by sterilization. Destroy any person that has come in contact with the plague, which originates in Midianite males and was earlier spread to the Israelites by contaminated Midianite women. Do not kill all Midianite women, only those that have come in contact with the plague through intercourse. Then sterilize everything else. If you as an Israelite came in contact with blood, you are to remain in quarantine for 7 days. If your tools came in contact with the disease, they are to be sterilized by flame.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 10:53 AM   #144
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I admit I was not familiar with Numbers 31:17 until this post. So I went back and read all of Numbers 31 to understand the context. Here is what I take from this:

The Israelites went to war with the Midianites and were to kill all the men per God's instruction. Why? We're about to find out.

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man.

"The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses "

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.


My comments:
As a biochemist...This sounds like a very precise description of a way to contain a sexually transmitted plague by sterilization. Destroy any person that has come in contact with the plague, which originates in Midianite males and was earlier spread to the Israelites by contaminated Midianite women. Do not kill all Midianite women, only those that have come in contact with the plague through intercourse. Then sterilize everything else. If you as an Israelite came in contact with blood, you are to remain in quarantine for 7 days. If your tools came in contact with the disease, they are to be sterilized by flame.
Yeah, most people that have committed genocide find some way to justify it.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #145
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Yeah, most people that have committed genocide find some way to justify it.
If it were genocide, which by definition is intended to remove the genes of a population, would you keep the fertile females alive?
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Old November 7th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #146
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If it were genocide, which by definition is intended to remove the genes of a population, would you keep the fertile females alive?
As sex object and slaves. You can always just kill them if they get pregnant. Make up some BS story about them being "unclean".
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Old November 7th, 2013, 04:33 PM   #147
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As sex object and slaves. You can always just kill them if they get pregnant. Make up some BS story about them being "unclean".
So according to your take on this: The bible (a ficticious set of books) is written as history in order to describe themselves as rapists interested in genocide (rather than just omitting the story). And although the record clearly describes means of quarantining individuals and sterilizing contaminated tools, is really just a cover for a story they themselves are telling? I know you want to portray yourself as someone who researches facts, but then you apply your bias and insert your own speculations in order to find the truth?
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Old November 7th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #148
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I guess that's the difference between you and I, I don't think there is ANY context that would lead me to believe that it's ok to slaughter a group of women because they've had sex and keep young girls as my own.
That is why He is God and you are not.
You cannot understand God and His word if you are not born again. You can read the bible all you want but without the Holy Spirit you will not understand His truth. He also calls it the Spirit of Truth.
Ever hear the term, ever knowing but not understanding?
Without knowing God and what the big picture is you can only come up with your conclusion of what you think it means. And you're usually wrong.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #149
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That is why He is God and you are not.
You cannot understand God and His word if you are not born again. You can read the bible all you want but without the Holy Spirit you will not understand His truth. He also calls it the Spirit of Truth.
Ever hear the term, ever knowing but not understanding?
Without knowing God and what the big picture is you can only come up with your conclusion of what you think it means. And you're usually wrong.
This is the kind of thinking that leads people to justify atrocities in the name of god.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 08:15 PM   #150
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This is the kind of thinking that leads people to justify atrocities in the name of god.
In modern day, can you name 1.
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Old November 7th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #151
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In modern day, can you name 1.
Andrea Yates, modern day Isaac...

Last edited by mikesova; November 7th, 2013 at 08:33 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2013, 06:54 AM   #152
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Andrea Yates, modern day Isaac...
That's a very sad story. She had problems for sure.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 04:07 PM   #153
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So there are situations where murder and sexual slavery is OK in Gods eyes?
Did you live back then? Nope. Did I? Nope? Did anyone from our life time live back then? nope. So why do you think it's ok to use our morals that we have to day to judge those that aren't even part of thie century? Especially when you preach we shouldn't judge anybody?


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This discussion began asking about where atheists get their morals from or why we don't go out and loot/pillage/rape...but what makes "God's morals" so spectacular?



I still stand that I have a superior moral system than God's.
"The foolish man built has house on the sand".

Aber is right. Context is key. I'm pretty sure any liberal with a Coexist bumper sticker wouldn't last 2 days back then because they think we should all act nice to each other. Different time, different ways, different 'right and wrong'.

Also, God created you. He created every cell. Including your brain cells. The ones that make up your 'morals'. He owns them. You don't. Move along. . IMB (Belief), Your borrowing God's morals and making them your own.



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I guess that's the difference between you and I, I don't think there is ANY context that would lead me to believe that it's ok to slaughter a group of women because they've had sex and keep young girls as my own.
And that is because you live in the 21st century and accept the morals you've been fed by our society (so have I, it's ok).
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Old November 11th, 2013, 04:13 PM   #154
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What is your purpose on earth?
procreate
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Old November 11th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #155
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Did you live back then? Nope. Did I? Nope? Did anyone from our life time live back then? nope. So why do you think it's ok to use our morals that we have to day to judge those that aren't even part of thie century?
You have been arguing this whole time about god giving us our morals, not society. So why would the god given morals change from then to now?
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Old November 11th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #156
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Technically I think our purpose is to reproduce.
even at your advanced age?

what do i know, i never reproduced?
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Old November 11th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #157
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even at your advanced age?

what do i know, i never reproduced?
you have to have the sects with ta woman in da NO NO zone
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Old November 11th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #158
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procreate
Posted previously, but if your purpose is to procreate with as many women as possible and increase the numbers/survival of your gene pool (Darwin), then a LOT is suddenly justifiable, including rape. Personally I think we each have a much greater purpose.
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Old November 11th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #159
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Posted previously, but if your purpose is to procreate with as many women as possible and increase the numbers/survival of your gene pool (Darwin), then a LOT is suddenly justifiable, including rape. Personally I think we each have a much greater purpose.
Take procreation away. Then where is your "higher purpose" at?

#1 fornicate
#2 be shamed by some religion
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Old November 11th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #160
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Posted previously, but if your purpose is to procreate with as many women as possible and increase the numbers/survival of your gene pool (Darwin), then a LOT is suddenly justifiable, including rape. Personally I think we each have a much greater purpose.
unfortunately "I believe" that humans are monogamous by nature.

The only difference between a human being and a animal is a "conscience"

we fuction much the same as many other animals on earth, at least I do
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