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Old September 19th, 2013, 05:01 PM   #61
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For those that say teachers don't take thier work home......You've never lived with a teacher before have you?

My mother, who was a music teacher, regularly had work to bring home and she didn't even have a full class. She was also required to provide alot of her equipment (instruments = $$$) out of her salary. It wasn't factored into her salary either.

My brother is a teacher, he always has papers to grade, books to read, and curriculum to figure out.

They are teaching the future generation the basics of society. I think paying them for thier job, most of which have masters degrees, is plenty worth it.

If you're jealous, suck it up. You were stupid enough to get a job were you didn't get summers off.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:02 PM   #62
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Actually, why can't we have a year round school year. We are not an agrarian society that needs its children to work the field in the summer. There are countless studies that show pupils forget a lot of what they learned the year before and the beginning of next school year is wasted on repeating old information.

In a society where most households have both parents working, it would make more sense to have a year round school year and it would be beneficial to our kids education.
We have one such school (it still has breaks, but shorter).. its very popular with dual working families. THere's a lottery to even get in. The bus routes are long due to transfers, so it does pretty much cover babysitting for the whole day. Seems to work well, although we are perfectly happy with our 'normal' elementary (there are 6 or 7 elementaries in the orion district, some are standard 'neighborhood' schools, some are specific, like arts, natural science, or year round).

But if you are talking going another 2 months.. thats another 2 months of lunch service, electricity, etc. That costs more. Good luck passing a millage for that. As you can see, there's already too many people who think taxes are taking away all their hard earned beer and mayo sandwich money.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #63
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there's way too many words and not enough pics in this thread...
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Old September 19th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #64
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We have one such school (it still has breaks, but shorter).. its very popular with dual working families. THere's a lottery to even get in. The bus routes are long due to transfers, so it does pretty much cover babysitting for the whole day. Seems to work well, although we are perfectly happy with our 'normal' elementary (there are 6 or 7 elementaries in the orion district, some are standard 'neighborhood' schools, some are specific, like arts, natural science, or year round).

But if you are talking going another 2 months.. thats another 2 months of lunch service, electricity, etc. That costs more. Good luck passing a millage for that. As you can see, there's already too many people who think taxes are taking away all their hard earned beer and mayo sandwich money.
Also factor in teachers take their vaction time together. Once they teach year round now they have to take vacations at different times and have subs to fill in.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #65
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They are not paid based on some ranking or what workers in other unrelated industries are paid. So saying they are overpaid is a subjective statement, an opinion, not a fact.

If you want to say they are overpaid based on the laws of supply and demand, then they probably are, like most of us. But you don't exactly create a thriving work environment by seeing how little you can pay people before they stop showing up or applying for open positions (the equilibrium point).
Learn to read, 2nd highest paid, 26th ranked. That is their industry and their standards. Overpaid based on those numbers. You'd be pissed if you paid for seats in the second row and were seated in the 26th row....so are the taxpayers. Can't fix stupid and there's a whole shit ton of generationally bred stupid in the southeast part of the state. Sarry.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:36 PM   #66
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Kids get burnt out. Period. More school does not equal more learning.

Summertime is recharge session for the entire school system; cleaning, maintenance, training,construction, technology updates, etc etc but more importantly the kids. One of biggest differences I notice is the maturation process that happens over the summer, kids come back refreshed with a clean slate, ready for a new experience.

Most people cannot fathom the teaching environment which I can understand, but pounding the system to get more out of it is not right. It's like telling farmer the more he drives on the field the faster it will grow.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:44 PM   #67
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Learn to read, 2nd highest paid, 26th ranked. That is their industry and their standards. Overpaid based on those numbers. You'd be pissed if you paid for seats in the second row and were seated in the 26th row....so are the taxpayers. Can't fix stupid and there's a whole shit ton of generationally bred stupid in the southeast part of the state. Sarry.

who is this they you refer to?

do you really know who is being measured when they speak about 26th ranked?

hint, they are not measuring the teachers' aptitude or effort.



the type of performance metric you are using is as useful of a correlation as comparing the pay of police officers to criminal recidivism...

(you might as well state: better paid cops should be better able to influence criminals to not repeat offend)
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:14 AM   #68
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Kids get burnt out. Period. More school does not equal more learning.

Summertime is recharge session for the entire school system; cleaning, maintenance, training,construction, technology updates, etc etc but more importantly the kids. One of biggest differences I notice is the maturation process that happens over the summer, kids come back refreshed with a clean slate, ready for a new experience.

Most people cannot fathom the teaching environment which I can understand, but pounding the system to get more out of it is not right. It's like telling farmer the more he drives on the field the faster it will grow.
Actually, my brother works at a year round school. According to him, it's quite the opposite. The reason for this is that they get thier breaks spread out through out the year. This avoids the chunks of time like the one we all hated between spring break and the end of the year. They still get a larger summer break (a month or so) but it helps them retain what they learned the year before. My brother says he never has to review with a new batch of kids after summer.

The only problem with this is that you run into added costs of running the schools all year. Most districts will not run AC or even all the lights during the summer. There's no need.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #69
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who is this they you refer to?

do you really know who is being measured when they speak about 26th ranked?

hint, they are not measuring the teachers' aptitude or effort.



the type of performance metric you are using is as useful of a correlation as comparing the pay of police officers to criminal recidivism...

(you might as well state: better paid cops should be better able to influence criminals to not repeat offend)
I'm sorry, MI must be the only state with inner city's and worthless parents. Clearly MI has the best teachers.........since they are the 2nd highest paid in the country and you clearly don't want to hold them accountable for their pay. However, the students they teach rate 26th in the country based on formal testing of the subject matter these teachers are supposed to be teaching. Sounds like we are wasting money if we're spending good money on teachers when the students aren't making the grades........is that your view on it, that the students aren't smart enough to do better than 26th regardless of how good the teachers are?



Your cop analogy would be remotely correct if criminals spent 9 months a year for 12 yrs with police officers teaching them the laws............then testing them on the laws they were supposed to be learning about that whole time. So pretty much your analogy sucked.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:47 AM   #70
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My opinion is they are under paid. There is no value I can put on my children being well educated and successful in life. Well actually there is but there no were near that price yet.

Have you noticed most teachers that are in there 40's look severely older. That's because it's not an easy job. Lots of unaccounted hours for training (especially now that curriculum is changing nation wide), lesson planning, supply management that most teachers pay out of pocket, website updating, parent communication, clean up and organization of the room (because we all know our kids put shit back were it goes), committees, paper grading and correcting. I have realized most teachers are trying to correct and grade as much as possible during the day because of all of the other things to do.

I chalk the breaks through out the year and summer up to a detoxification. I know my 3.kids can drive me nuts let alone 30-35 all day.

Pay them more and appreciate what they do for our children.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:49 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
Learn to read, 2nd highest paid, 26th ranked. That is their industry and their standards. Overpaid based on those numbers. You'd be pissed if you paid for seats in the second row and were seated in the 26th row....so are the taxpayers. Can't fix stupid and there's a whole shit ton of generationally bred stupid in the southeast part of the state. Sarry.
Have you driven around michigan lately? Seems the further you get from SE Michigan the closer you get to kentucky and inbred cousins!
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:56 AM   #72
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My opinion is they are under paid. There is no value I can put on my children being well educated and successful in life. Well actually there is but there no were near that price yet.

Pay them more and appreciate what they do for our children.
Agreed 100%.


FWIW, when I was in the Marine Corps I wanted to be a high school social studies, history, or government teacher when I got out and finished college... until I got stuck on an airplane to Spain for 10 hours with about 75 obnoxious, loud high school students on a class trip.

No thank you.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 08:01 AM   #73
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Learn to read, 2nd highest paid, 26th ranked. That is their industry and their standards. Overpaid based on those numbers. You'd be pissed if you paid for seats in the second row and were seated in the 26th row....so are the taxpayers. Can't fix stupid and there's a whole shit ton of generationally bred stupid in the southeast part of the state. Sarry.
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Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
I'm sorry, MI must be the only state with inner city's and worthless parents. Clearly MI has the best teachers.........since they are the 2nd highest paid in the country and you clearly don't want to hold them accountable for their pay. However, the students they teach rate 26th in the country based on formal testing of the subject matter these teachers are supposed to be teaching. Sounds like we are wasting money if we're spending good money on teachers when the students aren't making the grades........is that your view on it, that the students aren't smart enough to do better than 26th regardless of how good the teachers are?



Your cop analogy would be remotely correct if criminals spent 9 months a year for 12 yrs with police officers teaching them the laws............then testing them on the laws they were supposed to be learning about that whole time. So pretty much your analogy sucked.
Is that your view on it?
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Old September 20th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #74
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Have you driven around michigan lately? Seems the further you get from SE Michigan the closer you get to kentucky and inbred cousins!
So that correlates to school grades how exactly?

During a 4 yr span, I split it with 2 yrs in flint and 2 yrs in Homer, MI. You won't get much more michitucky than homer MI, and I'll take put those students against flint students academically any day of the week. Work ethic is a whole different thing. I haven't ever seen people work harder than when I worked in Homer.
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Is that your view on it?
That you can't fix stupid? It's a slogan for a reason. Everyone is good at something, sometimes it's nothing marketable.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 08:36 AM   #75
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So that correlates to school grades how exactly?

During a 4 yr span, I split it with 2 yrs in flint and 2 yrs in Homer, MI. You won't get much more michitucky than homer MI, and I'll take put those students against flint students academically any day of the week. Work ethic is a whole different thing. I haven't ever seen people work harder than when I worked in Homer.
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https://www.mischooldata.org/Distric...splayType=None

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I've mentally blocked out Detroit and Flint, they don't even exist to me anymore. I consider them to be abnormal to the surrounding areas, so I no longer consider them in statistics
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Old September 20th, 2013, 08:37 AM   #76
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I've mentally blocked out Detroit and Flint, they don't even exist to me anymore. I consider them to be abnormal to the surrounding areas, so I no longer consider them in statistics
Lots of people there though.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #77
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Lots of people there though.
I don't call them people.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 10:04 AM   #78
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Agreed 100%.


FWIW, when I was in the Marine Corps I wanted to be a high school social studies, history, or government teacher when I got out and finished college... until I got stuck on an airplane to Spain for 10 hours with about 75 obnoxious, loud high school students on a class trip.

No thank you.
I think this is a difficult position to enter into this argument, which is why I started the thread with a statement that the job is difficult, and we appreciate the work teachers do.

It definitely is a calling, but we should not assume that because one person views dealing with high school students as a personal hell, that everyone does. Teachers chose their career because they have this calling and enjoy working with kids. This difference between personalities should not influence how many hours a year you work though.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 10:43 AM   #79
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I think this is a difficult position to enter into this argument, which is why I started the thread with a statement that the job is difficult, and we appreciate the work teachers do.

It definitely is a calling, but we should not assume that because one person views dealing with high school students as a personal hell, that everyone does. Teachers chose their career because they have this calling and enjoy working with kids. This difference between personalities should not influence how many hours a year you work though.
Teachers chose their career because they have the calling and enjoy working with kids AND because they know (in most cases) that they will get a big chunk of time away from work in the summer and/or that they will typically be working X number of hours. It is all part of the decision making process.

We already have a hard time in this country recruiting the best and brightest to be teachers. I imagine it would be ever more difficult to recruit if the potential teachers know that they would be working more hours for the same pay. Even if we increase the pay in order to match the increase in hours, you are still going to change who you are going to be able to recruit (whether it is for better or worse).
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Old September 20th, 2013, 10:50 AM   #80
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I'm sorry, MI must be the only state with inner city's and worthless parents. Clearly MI has the best teachers.........since they are the 2nd highest paid in the country and you clearly don't want to hold them accountable for their pay. However, the students they teach rate 26th in the country based on formal testing of the subject matter these teachers are supposed to be teaching. Sounds like we are wasting money if we're spending good money on teachers when the students aren't making the grades........is that your view on it, that the students aren't smart enough to do better than 26th regardless of how good the teachers are?



Your cop analogy would be remotely correct if criminals spent 9 months a year for 12 yrs with police officers teaching them the laws............then testing them on the laws they were supposed to be learning about that whole time. So pretty much your analogy sucked.

you seem to be hung up on a couple of things. one is ranking.

you haven't cited, nor have I looked at the actual differences in those rankings. rankings in both of these cases are a discrete metric. however the actual scores are potentially infinite.

what if there's actually a 1 penny difference in average annual compensation between the 50 states, and only a 0.001% difference in the scoring. not as newsworthy to look at the actual dispersion as it is to rabidly point at ranking... usually, when that's the case, it's because just perhaps, the dispersion doesn't tell the story that an author wants to point out.

oh. as for "standardized testing" - Michigan's students are most typically scored based on MEAP - a Michigan thing. If I honestly was as worked up as you are on this, I'd damned well be sure I studied the methodology used in correlating the supposed metric across the 50 states.

my guess, and yes, it's just a guess is that you'd rather foam at the mouth and keep pointing to rankings taken at least somewhat out of context...


the analogy is fine - you being hung up on the amount of months in the year for each task is meaningless. just as criminals aren't always on the same shift as a good paid cop, and kids will skip homework assignments that are supposed to be done while not under the direct teaching efforts of a teacher...

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