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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:57 PM   #41
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Note, the question raised was not about salary, it was about hours worked.
I was not joking when I said it would drive me nuts to deal with snot nosed kids every day, every week, all year long. Teachers need the break.

I work hard and earn more than my special ed teacher daughter or autism consultant wife. I would not change jobs with them even if I could keep my pay.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 02:08 PM   #42
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Accountaibility starts with the parents. Thats why its so cyclical. Uneducated people don't tend to start educating their kids when they are little preschoolers. People who have studied, worked hard, and benefitted tend to pass that on to their kids much more often. (Obviously, those are generalizations, and many exceptions exist). Top performing districts aren't just because of the school teachers/systems. Its because most of them are high income, lots of tax dollars, lots of educated people living there, taking more interest and participating in their kids education.

Low performing districts like Pontiac or Detroit remain that way because of the parents and culture these kids grow up in, not because the teachers aren't doing enough.
Exactly.

You don't have to be a howell_tardgenious to analyze the data between the top and bottom performing school districts. Or high crime rate areas and low crime rate areas for that matter, it's all the same.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #43
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I can fire or discipline a shitty employee. If I have a shitty boss, I can change jobs. With an unruly child, I can only hope the parents will give me support. Sadly, in todays world, that is not as common as one might think.

And again, ever had a birthday party with 10 or so kids running around for a few hours? Ever be in a position where you can't wait for it to end? Now magnify that number x3 and do it every day. Sure, it's a career they chose but they still need a break from it.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 02:42 PM   #44
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They'll tell you the bs that they take work home with them at night, but that's a bunch of bologna. I know teachers who take evey summer, and just travel all over. It's a cake job, for that kind of money. The teachers union has such a foot hold, it's disgusting, and corrupt. Make them clean the schools and pull weeds all summer.

I don't know who "they is" vs. the ones you know.

I do know that my mother, now retired was in the building by 7:00 a.m. and did not leave until 5:00 pm. Mon-Fri.

Yes, she took work home too.

Yes, she was back early from "summer vacation" to set up her class room.

As a teacher of younger ages, including some early ed. in Brandon schools she dealt with kids who had parents that wouldn't even teach their kids basic hygiene - let alone hold the kids accountable for poor behavior or performance.

as for Michigan being ranked 28th in the nation - I challenge folks to look into means to fix that - if a teacher can't hold jimmy back cause he'd rather flick boogers (or eat them) than learn the study material - and if parents aren't held somewhat accountable for their misfits then what good does having a disgruntled teacher picking weeds during the summer do?

oh yeah. I have a 13 year old and a 10 year old in Fenton Schools. my 10 year old has developed a habit of leaving his backpack at school and somehow not discovering this factoid until close to 5:00. only once have we not been able to get into his class room to fetch it for the evening, and his teacher is returning phone calls and e-mails well after dinner time on more than one occasion.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #45
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I can fire or discipline a shitty employee. If I have a shitty boss, I can change jobs. With an unruly child, I can only hope the parents will give me support. Sadly, in todays world, that is not as common as one might think.
Everything said here also applies to policemen and nurses as much as teachers, however only one of the three get the summer off. How about day-care workers? Guess they need the summer off also...
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Old September 19th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #46
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Everything said here also applies to policemen and nurses as much as teachers, however only one of the three get the summer off. How about day-care workers? Guess they need the summer off also...
having worked in local/regional government, policemen have some pretty nice working hours and some marginally ok OT benefits, and/or other benefits that teachers don't typically receive. some might argue that a suburban police officer may also have a lower risk of on the job violence than an inner city teacher.

I don't fully know how well nurses are compensated in their duties.

from what I do know of each, neither typically has a Master's degree essentially required for their duties.

it seems that this post really isn't at all about the number of hours worked in a year compared to educational requirements, but rather pointed at the fact that teachers get the summer off...
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Old September 19th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #47
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I'd also suggest that anyone looking into teaching consider how difficult it is to change jobs to a different district once that master's degree is already in hand.

while not impossible, it is in fact VERY difficult to change districts. most districts would rather bring in a fresh teacher at a lower pay grade (arguably more energetic as well?) than an experienced educator that already has their Master's.

I know of several nurses that have job-hopped from one hospital to another in the past 3 years alone...
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Old September 19th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #48
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Teachers are overpaid for what they do. It's a fact. No reason to argue about it.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 03:51 PM   #49
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quit hating because teachers because they have the summer off, that's just one of the perks of the job. Now get back to work.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 03:54 PM   #50
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Teachers are overpaid for what they do. It's a fact. No reason to argue about it.

so am I. so are countless other people.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Everything said here also applies to policemen and nurses as much as teachers, however only one of the three get the summer off. How about day-care workers? Guess they need the summer off also...
I'm sure if it was a given that people wouldn't get sick or commit crimes for two month out of the year they wouldn't be required to show up for work during that time either.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:14 PM   #52
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2nd highest paid in the US
http://www.mackinac.org/18272

Performance 26th in the nation

They're overpaid based on the facts above.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:15 PM   #53
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Actually, why can't we have a year round school year. We are not an agrarian society that needs its children to work the field in the summer. There are countless studies that show pupils forget a lot of what they learned the year before and the beginning of next school year is wasted on repeating old information.

In a society where most households have both parents working, it would make more sense to have a year round school year and it would be beneficial to our kids education.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:15 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by jaysusr View Post
They'll tell you the bs that they take work home with them at night, but that's a bunch of bologna. I know teachers who take evey summer, and just travel all over. It's a cake job, for that kind of money. The teachers union has such a foot hold, it's disgusting, and corrupt. Make them clean the schools and pull weeds all summer.
You are full of shit. First, we don't get paid for the summer if we don't work it. You also aren't taking into account all the time that we are required, by contract, to put in but don't get any extra pay for. Parent meetings, IEP meetings, faculty meetings, state inspections etc. Then add that I have to travel somewhere in the country and do 40 hours of continuing education in my field every summer....all out of my pocket. Then add that teachers are forced to take college classes pretty much forever out of their pocket just to keep the license. Have you looked into graduate credits? They aren't cheap.

I came to work at quarter to 7 this morning and at 5pm I am just leaving and I have 2 assignments for 6 different classes to grade and enter into computer tonight plus prep for tomorrows classes.

Union? LOL The union in Michigan has zero power. Tenure is GONE. It doesn't exist like it did back in the day.

Cake job? Try it. Until then
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
I'd also suggest that anyone looking into teaching consider how difficult it is to change jobs to a different district once that master's degree is already in hand.

while not impossible, it is in fact VERY difficult to change districts. most districts would rather bring in a fresh teacher at a lower pay grade (arguably more energetic as well?) than an experienced educator that already has their Master's.

I know of several nurses that have job-hopped from one hospital to another in the past 3 years alone...
There are many districts in Michigan that have it written in the contract that they can not hire a master's or higher teacher. Many have been switching to that over the last 5 years as contracts expire.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #56
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quit hating because teachers because they have the summer off, that's just one of the perks of the job. Now get back to work.
Yea, it's a perk, but you could do it too. Just quit your job for the summer. It's almost the same thing. I don't work for the school over the summer, I don't get paid. Or a better example would be road construction where you get laid off over the winter and can collect unemployment. Teachers can not collect unemployment over the summer.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #57
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From the way teachers describe it, teaching is the worst job in the world. Almost on par with being a slave or in forced labor. With all the complaining they do they sound like the kids they teach. If it's such a shitty job, quit.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #58
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Yea, it's a perk, but you could do it too. Just quit your job for the summer. It's almost the same thing. I don't work for the school over the summer, I don't get paid. Or a better example would be road construction where you get laid off over the winter and can collect unemployment. Teachers can not collect unemployment over the summer.
Hey im with ya! Im defending teachers here, like whiterhino said, no way in hell do I want to deal with 30+ kids a day, staying up grading papers and shit, props to you sir. Everyone could have been a teacher if they wanted, me included, but its not for me that's for sure. Also I have zero problems with them having summers off and getting paid what they do. Its not an easy job, especially as the years go on.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #59
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2nd highest paid in the US
http://www.mackinac.org/18272

Performance 26th in the nation

They're overpaid based on the facts above.
They are not paid based on some ranking or what workers in other unrelated industries are paid. So saying they are overpaid is a subjective statement, an opinion, not a fact.

If you want to say they are overpaid based on the laws of supply and demand, then they probably are, like most of us. But you don't exactly create a thriving work environment by seeing how little you can pay people before they stop showing up or applying for open positions (the equilibrium point).
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Old September 19th, 2013, 04:57 PM   #60
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Just as another person tale, I will share some of my story.

Both of my parents are now retired elementary school teachers. Both have Bachelors degrees, one has a Masters. Both worked for a semi-rural school district for 30-35+ years. I make as much if not more as a recent college grad (in engineering, so the comparison is almost not fair)

In exchange for their time, they constantly had parents that did not give a shit/didn't want their kids and wanted free baby sitting. They had parents who did not want to help their child succeed so it was the teachers fault homework was not done, the kid didn't pay attention, or that they lacked basic human function/control that should have been learned by a 3-4 year old. It was almost impossible to do their job with administrators breathing down your neck, the same way a manager would to an employee in any other job.

Then it is equally frustrating when a good kid is not able to get 100% because you have to teach to everybody, from those who care(as much as a kid in elementary school could) to the lowest common denominator hellion.

When I was in elementary school, they would leave an hour or two before me, and would be home a couple hours after I got home. They regularly spent money to buy school supplies or lunch for a kid who didn't have any. I remember former students coming back to say hello to my parents, or stopping to chat as adults when we passed them in the store, so I am confident that they tried their hardest and where in the category we would all describe as a "good teacher".

People like my parents are equally frustrated that some of their co-workers were real pieces of shit sometimes. They were handcuffed into working with terrible people too, and could not do or say much just like most of us in our regular jobs.

If teaching was such a gravy job, there would not be the wash out rate there is. The pay is somewhat market based. "Good" school districts typically pay more because they see the value in getting good educators and base their pay accordingly. My parents could have made as much as $10k more a year working in the "better" district a town over.

After seeing they type of crap they had to go through, I would not want the job for even more money than I make now and the summer off. Sure, there are teachers that don't care and ride the perks like a pro, but I don't feel that is the norm and I know there are people like that in every profession.
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