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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
The question raised in this thread is if there are unused hours that could be applied to have our teachers "complete the task" or are they already working 1960 hours a year at this task?
Who gives a crap if they are working 1960 hours. Your brain can't wrap itself around the fact that if they would be getting the same pay, and require more hours of work, then they will go somewhere else, where they will get the same pay, for less work. Speaking of going somewhere else...

If you don't like the perception that Michigan is wasting your taxpayer dollars, then its easy. Get out. No one will miss you. They aren't your dollars, once you give them to someone else.

You want to live in a city and state with a nice economy, good jobs, low crime, then you need good education. And you will pay for it, even if you don't have kids. You make that choice. You know what the taxes are before you buy a house. If you don't like it, leave. Go live in Montana.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by kixx007 View Post
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE….

That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!


I love you Ryan.



Being a former teacher, I do not think they should work more hours. It is funny, those who have never taught always complain about the hours/pay.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
To start, the average school year is 30 weeks of class, is this correct?

Assuming 10 hours / day (class + grading for those that don't have free hours)

30 weeks x 50 hours/week = 1500 hours.

What else? Conferences, training, beginning of year preparations? Teachers and spouses, please help us add some hours to reflect these "other" responsibilities.
according to this: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...2_250846_7.pdf the minimum school year is 170 day which would be 34 weeks.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by feva4u View Post
I would love to only work 1960hrs/yr
It's a conservative value so nobody claims the analysis was biased.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:00 PM   #25
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according to this: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...2_250846_7.pdf the minimum school year is 170 day which would be 34 weeks.
Many schools go 180 days. The only issue is with inclement weather days and makes ups at the end of the year, sometimes the state will forgive days in extreme cases.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:05 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
It's a conservative value so nobody claims the analysis was biased.
I couldn't do a satisfactory job in 1960hrs/yr so I would get fired. My job is directly results driven unlike teachers, so there's really no comparison. You can't teach someone that doesn't want to learn. I get to fire those people, teachers are stuck with them.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:19 PM   #27
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I'm just curious, what exactly would your proposal be? Year-round schooling?
As stated in the original post (please read), this is not a proposal for year round schooling.

It is an exercise to determine if teachers work an average of 1960 hours per year (we need some data for this analysis, but nobody is providing any).

If fewer than 1960 hours are worked in a year might merit that teachers work during the summer to improve effectiveness of curriculum so that students learn better during the regularly scheduled school season.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
If fewer than 1960 hours are worked in a year might merit that teachers work during the summer to improve effectiveness of curriculum so that students learn better during the regularly scheduled school season.
That would be a great idea, but would require a raise for each teacher. If your boss said you had to work the equivalent of 8 more weeks a year than you agreed to, you would demand a raise too.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mr.Green again View Post
That would be a great idea, but would require a raise for each teacher. If your boss said you had to work the equivalent of 8 more weeks a year than you agreed to, you would demand a raise too.
Not in 2009 you wouldn't
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
To save TSAguy's thread, starting a new one.

NOTE:
This is not about whether teachers are beneficial to our children. They are.
This is not about if teaching is a tough job. It is.
This is not about adding hours to kid's school hours. They need a creative break.
This is not about whether we appreciate teachers. We do.

This is an accounting exercise. 1) Do Michigan teachers work as many hours as the average American adult? 2) If not, is it fair to expect that more hours be maintained in order to improve our school performance ratings?

Here is what we have so far:

Average pay for a non charter school teachers in Michigan is about $63,000
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18684

Median household income in Michigan is $48,669
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Michigan school performance is ranked 28th in the US
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

Question: Do teachers work the equivalent of a standard full-time job or should more time be expected from them?
Let's try to complete the timechart - HOW MANY HOURS A YEAR DOES A TEACHER WORK?

Average employee with 40 hours / week and 3 weeks vacation/sick = 49 weeks x 40 = 1960 hours/year for non-teachers
Median house hold in MI, are you considerign the fact that they have to have a degree to teach? where does there salary fall compared to average salaries of people with similar degrees?


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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Yes, I don't like government wasting of my tax dollar. But here I am only accounting (not bitching) for the return on my investment as it relates to teachers. It's called accountability.
I agree about accountability, I think this thread discussing their pay is barking up the wrong tree, accountability is the tree you're after
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:39 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Mr.Green again View Post
That would be a great idea, but would require a raise for each teacher. If your boss said you had to work the equivalent of 8 more weeks a year than you agreed to, you would demand a raise too.
Exactly.


What people should care about it how to we as a community, state, and country, improve education to maintain and improve our position in the world.

Instead, we have people arguing that we pay too much tax and that teachers aren't working enough.

These are the same kind of people who don't show up for curriculum night and conferences, don't talk to their kids teachers, don't read to their kids and help them study, and then complain that the teachers aren't doing their jobs.

I can't help feeling bad for some of the kids we see in the lowest grades, that are disadvantaged by having uncaring, uninvolved parents.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #32
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Educational performance has little to do with curriculum polishing, or wages, or teacher work hours, it has to do with parenting.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:42 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by swampjeep View Post

I agree about accountability, I think this thread discussing their pay is barking up the wrong tree, accountability is the tree you're after
Note, the question raised was not about salary, it was about hours worked.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
Note, the question raised was not about salary, it was about hours worked.
and I still question the part about comparing income of degreed households to degreed house holds, and say, no, more hours is not the answer, but holding accountable, somehow, is a better idea.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #35
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Educational performance has little to do with curriculum polishing, or wages, or teacher work hours, it has to do with parenting.
partially true. Have you ever seen the impact of a single bad teacher? It can be very detrimental. That said, this doesn't really relate to the topic as I doubt having teachers work through the summer would eliminate bad teachers.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #36
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I agree about accountability, I think this thread discussing their pay is barking up the wrong tree, accountability is the tree you're after
Accountaibility starts with the parents. Thats why its so cyclical. Uneducated people don't tend to start educating their kids when they are little preschoolers. People who have studied, worked hard, and benefitted tend to pass that on to their kids much more often. (Obviously, those are generalizations, and many exceptions exist). Top performing districts aren't just because of the school teachers/systems. Its because most of them are high income, lots of tax dollars, lots of educated people living there, taking more interest and participating in their kids education.

Low performing districts like Pontiac or Detroit remain that way because of the parents and culture these kids grow up in, not because the teachers aren't doing enough.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
partially true. Have you ever seen the impact of a single bad teacher? It can be very detrimental. That said, this doesn't really relate to the topic as I doubt having teachers work through the summer would eliminate bad teachers.
I missed that in your first post. I would argue that a really good teacher can have just as positive effect as a bad one does negative effect. My MIL is a high school teacher, my observation has been that she works about 7am-4pm during the school year. She is a choir teacher so several times a month for performances and such she will work several more hours, on average maybe another 8-10 hrs/month. She starts work a few weeks before the school year and ends 1 week or so after. She doesn't have any real commitments to the school during the summer break.

Based on that, I'd estimate her to work about 1700-1800 hrs/yr.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #38
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This thread is official stupid. It needs to be read to by CC, hugged by all and go to a good school with highly paid teachers. Until then it is incredibly stupid.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:54 PM   #39
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partially true. Have you ever seen the impact of a single bad teacher? It can be very detrimental. That said, this doesn't really relate to the topic as I doubt having teachers work through the summer would eliminate bad teachers.
And any involved parent should have been on that situation. Kids can transfer to other classes, etc. Parents can help their kids work through situations, both teaching the subject(or get them extra help if its outside of their experience.), and teaching that not everyone in life is easy to work with.

I find most of those bad teachers are in the upper grade levels and higher education. Guess what kids, get into a nice career, there are bad managers and such, too. Being successful in life is learning how to deal with people.

As you say, there are bad employees in every field and not relevent. There are a lot more bad parents, then bad teachers.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 01:55 PM   #40
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US ranks 17th in the developed world for education
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2199795.html

Within the US, Michigan ranks 28th
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

The question raised in this thread is if there are unused hours that could be applied to have our teachers "complete the task" or are they already working 1960 hours a year at this task?
To make all things equal find out the size of the classrooms and teachers pay for the top ranking countries of the world.
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