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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:15 PM   #1
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Default Do teachers need to work more hours

Title: Teacher Work Hours in Michigan, a Web-based Survey

Abstract

Hypothesis: Teachers in Michigan work 1960 hours or more per year, consistent with their salary and a typical 40 hour/week position.

Methods: This study surveyed teachers and teacher spouses on a 4x4 web forum to collect information on teacher work hours including classroom hours, pre- and post- school year activities, and required conferences. Participants were not screened for entry into the study, and all responses were voluntary.

Results: Teachers work hours could not be established due to lack of sufficient data from individuals on the 4x4 web forum.

Discussion: The group surveyed was inadequately informed to provide sufficient data to suppor or reject the hypothesis. While it remains uncertain if teachers work the equivalent of a 40hr/week job, several social issues were explored. This warrants future studies surveying other populations such as a teaching-based web forum to ascertain the actual hours worked by teachers in Michigan.



To save TSAguy's thread, starting a new one.

NOTE:
This is not about whether teachers are beneficial to our children. They are.
This is not about if teaching is a tough job. It is.
This is not about adding hours to kid's school hours. They need a creative break.
This is not about whether we appreciate teachers. We do.

This is an accounting exercise. 1) Do Michigan teachers work as many hours as the average American adult? 2) If not, is it fair to expect that more hours be maintained in order to improve our school performance ratings?

Here is what we have so far:

Average pay for a non charter school teachers in Michigan is about $63,000
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18684

Median household income in Michigan is $48,669
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Michigan school performance is ranked 28th in the US
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

Question: Do teachers work the equivalent of a standard full-time job or should more time be expected from them?
Let's try to complete the timechart - HOW MANY HOURS A YEAR DOES A TEACHER WORK?

Average employee with 40 hours / week and 3 weeks vacation/sick = 49 weeks x 40 = 1960 hours/year for non-teachers
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:17 PM   #2
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:19 PM   #3
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They'll tell you the bs that they take work home with them at night, but that's a bunch of bologna. I know teachers who take evey summer, and just travel all over. It's a cake job, for that kind of money. The teachers union has such a foot hold, it's disgusting, and corrupt. Make them clean the schools and pull weeds all summer.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:21 PM   #4
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No, teachers work hard and are underpaid for the bullshit they have to deal with. You want to change the work schedules for teachers? Eliminate the unions and make it a free market. I suspect in many cases their pay would go up.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #5
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They should work as much as they need to.

Are you proposing we extend school hours?
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #6
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Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE….

That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:33 PM   #7
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IIRC, which doesn't happen much these days, the school district I grew up in had a pay scale that was based upon senority, not merit. I know there were pay adders for additional schooling and degrees.

As a result our district had quite a few fossils that were horrible teachers, well paid, and untouchable. We also would lose a lot of good younger teachers to other districts because of the pay scales.

However our school district was fucked up on numerous levels so I don't know if I'd expect this to be the norm everywhere.

Regardless of how you feel they should be compensated, being a teacher would be a pretty tough job in today's society where you have zero recourse with students and the students bring zero respect and responsibility into the class room.

That being said I think teachers should be compensated adequately for what they do, but shitty teacher should be kicked to the curb regardless of unions and tenure.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kixx007 View Post
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE….

That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
/thread
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
To save TSAguy's thread, starting a new one.

Here is what we have so far:

Average pay for a non charter school teachers in Michigan is about $63,000
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18684

Median household income in Michigan is $48,669
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

Michigan school performance is ranked 28th in the US
http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

Question: Do teachers work the equivalent of a standard full-time job or should more time be expected from them?
Let's try to complete the timechart - HOW MANY HOURS A YEAR DOES A TEACHER WORK?

Average employee with 40 hours / week and 3 weeks vacation/sick = 49 weeks x 40 = 1960 hours/year for non-teachers, making slightly less per year than teachers.

Average ≠ Median

Also, while tangentially related "Median Household Income" is a much different beast than looking at wages for a certain type of worker. If you want to compare teacher wages v "average" wages, you would be better off looking at Per Capita Income or the Quarterly Census of Employment and Wages or the Current Population Survey.

Last edited by WSU JK; September 19th, 2013 at 12:38 PM.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kixx007 View Post
Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do – babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan– that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET’S SEE….

That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
You should really cite sources. There is no way in hell you came up with that clever little tale.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
To start, the average school year is 30 weeks of class, is this correct?

Assuming 10 hours / day (class + grading for those that don't have free hours)

30 weeks x 50 hours/week = 1500 hours.

What else? Conferences, training, beginning of year preparations? Teachers and spouses, please help us add some hours to reflect these "other" responsibilities.
If you really want to bitch about how your tax dollars are spent, you would garner a lot more support if you complained about Congress rather than educated middle class workers who make less than non eductated union auto workers.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:37 PM   #12
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You get paid to do a job. Who cares what hours you work. You don't work to put in hours, you work to complete a task.

The teachers task is to teach students. The annual going rate is the going rate. The number of hours is immaterial. Breaking it down into hourly wage is something people do when they are jealous of what others make.

Teachers require more education than people holding many jobs that fall under 'median' household income, especially in state that has households in Detroit, Flint, and Pontiac. They SHOULD make more than median.

If they are living high on the hog, and it bothers you, then YOU are the dummy who didn't become a teacher.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Green again View Post
Why are all of you hung up on the fact that teachers don't work a full work year? That is part of their deal and should have nothing to do with their annual salary. Bankers work less hours than rail road workers... So what?? Bottom line is a teacher gets paid a certain salary to work 10 months out of the year and basically 24/7 during the 10 months that they are working. The fact that you are bitter and jealous because you have to work a normal work week is your problem. This argument about they don't work a full year is ridiculous. I get paid a certain salary and it doesn't change if I work 5 days a week or 7, this was understood when I took my job and I am compensated accordingly. If I felt I wasn't, I would find a new job (not bitch about how little others work), that's how it works in adult world.
This ^^^^ and Teachers need to make more $. Lets get the best minds we can to teach our children. Lets not encourage teaching jobs to be filled by "median" quality workers.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:49 PM   #14
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I would love to only work 1960hrs/yr
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
IIRC, which doesn't happen much these days, the school district I grew up in had a pay scale that was based upon senority, not merit. I know there were pay adders for additional schooling and degrees.

As a result our district had quite a few fossils that were horrible teachers, well paid, and untouchable. We also would lose a lot of good younger teachers to other districts because of the pay scales.

However our school district was fucked up on numerous levels so I don't know if I'd expect this to be the norm everywhere.

Regardless of how you feel they should be compensated, being a teacher would be a pretty tough job in today's society where you have zero recourse with students and the students bring zero respect and responsibility into the class room.

That being said I think teachers should be compensated adequately for what they do, but shitty teacher should be kicked to the curb regardless of unions and tenure.
Our school (at least high school) was the same way, so are most colleges. I agree that a teacher ought to be able to be shit-canned if they suck regardless of tenure.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
The question raised in this thread is if there are unused hours that could be applied to have our teachers "complete the task" or are they already working 1960 hours a year at this task?
I'm just curious, what exactly would your proposal be? Year-round schooling?
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #17
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To the "teachers make too much for their cake walk part time job" camp:

Why aren't you guys teachers? You could be riding the gravy train with biscuit wheels!!!

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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschaffer66 View Post
You should really cite sources. There is no way in hell you came up with that clever little tale.
You are correct. Search the googler and you will find it.


This topic is retarded and I don't know why it always comes up...


I was raised in a household of educators (Sorry, I didn't turn out a brainwashed liberal). My father spent 40 years as an educator with multiple degrees and retired making 4/6ths of what you probably make, scientist guy. Instead of complaining to GL4x4 why you think teachers are overpaid (when in reality they are not), why don't you continue to figure out why I am fat and how I can fix it without exercising or dieting?


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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
To the "teachers make too much for their cake walk part time job" camp:

Why aren't you guys teachers? You could be riding the gravy train with biscuit wheels!!!

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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #20
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Here's a better comparison of wages of teachers v waves of all workers:

All Occupations (burger-flippers to NFL stars) $39,936
All Education/Training/Library Professions $47,580
Post-Secondary Teachers $63,232
PreSchool and Kindergarten Teachers $30,628
Elementary and Middle School Teachers $48,984
Secondary Education Teachers $52,468
Special Education Teachers $49,088
Other Teachers $40,820

These stats are national and only include those employed full-time (for each wage category listed). The source is the BLS's CPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Green again View Post
This ^^^^ and Teachers need to make more $. Lets get the best minds we can to teach our children. Lets not encourage teaching jobs to be filled by "median" quality workers.
Agreed 1,000x.
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