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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #81
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I would be interested in more information on how many hours are worked by teachers so we can calculate how many "days off" they get. Perhaps I am missing the point, but I won't know without this information.

As an fyi, my wife has to do continuing education courses to keep her nurses certification valid. She does not count that as "paid" time, it is required but not compensated.

I had to go back to school to get my masters degree in order to remain employed. I did not get paid for the 20 hrs/week that I was taking classes and doing homework, and I had to pay for my own classes.

In other words, when you provide the information let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples and not calling teachers "CE" time as work time.

If it turns out that teachers only take 3-4 weeks off/year including vacation and sick time, then I will shut up. Forever. You will never hear me complain about this issue again.
Well let's figure. My kids school starts at 8:30, I have never arrived at the school at 8am and not seen all of the teachers in their respective classrooms.

The lot tends to be clear by 4.

So that's 8 hours, including their lunch period, which if what my kids tell me is true is nothing more than about 20 minutes to scarf their food down. Probably a 30 minute lunch all said and done.

I would imagine (espescially in the middle and high school grades) that there is at least 1-2 hours of curriculum development and coursework grading to be done each night. That's an 8-9 hour day right there.

Keep in mind when the kids have a half day, thats a teach in service day, so let's assume a full 8 hour day there.

Now let's add in the OT, parent teach conference nights (twice a year, for a full week) I've been there as late as 830 PM to do conferences, that's a 12 hour day so there's a ful 40 hour work week of conferences throughout the year to make up for one of the 12 weeks they get off during the summer.

Now they are down to 11 weeks off in the summer. How many weeks extra do they work after the school year? Not sure about you, but there are cars in our schools lots for at least a week or so after, that puts us down to 10 weeks.

Figure 2 weeks before school, they're at 8 weeks.

Figure 1-2 weeks sometime in the middle of summer for a "conference" or "workshop" that I am sure gets mandated and you're down to 6 weeks of time off.

Add in family fun run events, concerts, assemblies, school plays, etc. and you can add in some additional time to pear down off that 6 weeks.

Now that they have 6 total weeks of vacation, they've worked a few less hours than the rest of us, they don't make a ton of money, and early in their careers many teachers get laid off at the end of the school year each year and don't even know if they will have a job next year.

Sorry, I don't feel that teachers are overpaid.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:06 AM   #82
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They can't prove anything. They just keep mindlessly repeating the same mumbo jumbo they hear in the media. They can't properly analyze the data presented because they are blinded by their stupidity. They will, however, call you fucktard because you don't agree with them.

If the facts are against them they ignore them.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #83
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Teachers work 10 months out of the year, which is NOT consistent with the norm.
The job is what the job is, the average norm is irrelevant, the norm for the job is 2 month off when school is out for summer. I'm not sure what has you hung up about it.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:09 AM   #84
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Well let's figure. My kids school starts at 8:30, I have never arrived at the school at 8am and not seen all of the teachers in their respective classrooms.

The lot tends to be clear by 4.

So that's 8 hours, including their lunch period, which if what my kids tell me is true is nothing more than about 20 minutes to scarf their food down. Probably a 30 minute lunch all said and done.

I would imagine (espescially in the middle and high school grades) that there is at least 1-2 hours of curriculum development and coursework grading to be done each night. That's an 8-9 hour day right there.

Keep in mind when the kids have a half day, thats a teach in service day, so let's assume a full 8 hour day there.

Now let's add in the OT, parent teach conference nights (twice a year, for a full week) I've been there as late as 830 PM to do conferences, that's a 12 hour day so there's a ful 40 hour work week of conferences throughout the year to make up for one of the 12 weeks they get off during the summer.

Now they are down to 11 weeks off in the summer. How many weeks extra do they work after the school year? Not sure about you, but there are cars in our schools lots for at least a week or so after, that puts us down to 10 weeks.

Figure 2 weeks before school, they're at 8 weeks.

Figure 1-2 weeks sometime in the middle of summer for a "conference" or "workshop" that I am sure gets mandated and you're down to 6 weeks of time off.

Add in family fun run events, concerts, assemblies, school plays, etc. and you can add in some additional time to pear down off that 6 weeks.

Now that they have 6 total weeks of vacation, they've worked a few less hours than the rest of us, they don't make a ton of money, and early in their careers many teachers get laid off at the end of the school year each year and don't even know if they will have a job next year.

Sorry, I don't feel that teachers are overpaid.
When you assume things you only make an ass out of yourself.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #85
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Being married to a teacher, a lot of this has made me lol.

My wife, with a dual masters, and several other endorsements, is lucky to find anything at around $42k/year.
She has to have a minimum amount of continuing education credits a year to stay certified. Even with her being a stay at home mom the last 5 years, she has still had to take, and pay for continuing education credits. Not reimbursed, out of my paycheck.

Did she get health insurance? Yes, in an HMO, with a deductible, and having a good portion of it deducted from her check.
Did she get a pension/ retirement plan? yes, not so great one, that once again she had to also pay into.

When teaching, and average day would be leave house at 7am, get home around 4:30-5 (unless there were meetings, conference's, workshop etc that she had to attend which could go until 8 or 9 pm). After dinner she would either grade papers, or work on getting projects or lesson plans ready for the next day/week.


She hasn't gone back full time because the time requirements don't offset the salary at the moment when childcare during the day, and then extra curricular activities which also would require care are factored into everything.

She currently substitute when i'm home and she is able to. Although pay for that is a complete joke, almost embarrassing considering the qualifications.

Kickstand was spot on with his summer time off as well. At school for at least a week after kids are done. Back for meetings, getting classroom set-up, new curriculm equipment training etc 2 weeks before kids start., and then about a week of other meetings/training/ curriculum review etc in the summer.

And the decision for my wife to be a stay at home mom, was helped to be made for us. At the end of that school year, of which if she was asked back the next year, would have had tenure, but that school, like several other, had a good reputation for keeping teachers just that long and then letting them go so they could hire in a new teacher, at a lower salary and not give tenure.

Last edited by Sandals; September 19th, 2013 at 11:15 AM.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:11 AM   #86
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I don't think any adult should take 2 months off each year. I have no problem working my full time job, but since I'm paying the salary of the teachers, I expect that they too should be working full-time (ie 12 months).
Why are all of you hung up on the fact that teachers don't work a full work year? That is part of their deal and should have nothing to do with their annual salary. Bankers work less hours than rail road workers... So what?? Bottom line is a teacher gets paid a certain salary to work 10 months out of the year and basically 24/7 during the 10 months that they are working. The fact that you are bitter and jealous because you have to work a normal work week is your problem. This argument about they don't work a full year is ridiculous. I get paid a certain salary and it doesn't change if I work 5 days a week or 7, this was understood when I took my job and I am compensated accordingly. If I felt I wasn't, I would find a new job (not bitch about how little others work), that's how it works in adult world.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:22 AM   #87
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Also you compared you wife into this as a nurse.

My mom is a nurse.

She originally only had a little over 2 years of college to first get certified and start working.
She also has to take some continuing education classes, not as expensive or long of classes that my wife, the teacher, has to.
She makes well over 100K/year
She had 6 weeks of vacation time she could use this year
She only works 3 - 4 days a week.
Pay for the base 3 @ 12 hour shifts is that same as when is used to be 5 @ 8 hour shift, i.e. 36 hours work, for same pay as 40 hours of work.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #88
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When you assume things you only make an ass out of yourself.
Well, I only assumed anything about half days, so I guess that only makes me an ass when discussing half days. Maybe one of those who is married to a teacher can confirm whether I am an ass for making an assumption about half days, of if you are just an ass.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:41 AM   #89
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Well, I only assumed anything about half days, so I guess that only makes me an ass when discussing half days. Maybe one of those who is married to a teacher can confirm whether I am an ass for making an assumption about half days, of if you are just an ass.
Everything that was in your post was assumed, except the time you drop off and pick up your kids.

Here are some facts, if you care to educate yourself, that support arguments that teachers are not only overpaid but also work less hours in a week than other professionals, and that is not accaccounting for the summer break:

http://www.aei.org/papers/education/...hool-teachers/

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011...mer-vacations/

But maybe they're just fucktarded.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #90
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Well, I only assumed anything about half days, so I guess that only makes me an ass when discussing half days. Maybe one of those who is married to a teacher can confirm whether I am an ass for making an assumption about half days, of if you are just an ass.
My wife is also a teacher and I will 110% agree with those that are defending them. She puts in on average 60 hours a week during the school year, and yes, there are many things that are mandatory during her 'summer vacation'. And she is WELL below making the $75K-ish that people seem to think teachers get.

You are correct about half days. My wife is still required to put in a full day for 'professional development'.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:53 AM   #91
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Well let's figure. My kids school starts at 8:30, I have never arrived at the school at 8am and not seen all of the teachers in their respective classrooms.

The lot tends to be clear by 4.

So that's 8 hours, including their lunch period, which if what my kids tell me is true is nothing more than about 20 minutes to scarf their food down. Probably a 30 minute lunch all said and done.

I would imagine (espescially in the middle and high school grades) that there is at least 1-2 hours of curriculum development and coursework grading to be done each night. That's an 8-9 hour day right there.

Agreed. Consistent with my previous assumptions.

Keep in mind when the kids have a half day, thats a teach in service day, so let's assume a full 8 hour day there.

Agreed. Consistent with my previous assumptions.

Now let's add in the OT, parent teach conference nights (twice a year, for a full week) I've been there as late as 830 PM to do conferences, that's a 12 hour day so there's a ful 40 hour work week of conferences throughout the year to make up for one of the 12 weeks they get off during the summer.

Agreed. To verify, during parent teacher weeks they likely work 60 hours (12 x 5) =2.5 extra days / week in the calculations x 2 weeks = 5 extra days, correct?

Now they are down to 11 weeks off in the summer. How many weeks extra do they work after the school year? Not sure about you, but there are cars in our schools lots for at least a week or so after, that puts us down to 10 weeks.

Figure 2 weeks before school, they're at 8 weeks.

Figure 1-2 weeks sometime in the middle of summer for a "conference" or "workshop" that I am sure gets mandated and you're down to 6 weeks of time off.

Please don't speculate, we need hard facts for these calculations. It is either 0 weeks, 1 week or 2 weeks. The exact figure is significant for this analysis. Maybe you can report back or some teachers on GL can provide us a value.

Add in family fun run events, concerts, assemblies, school plays, etc. and you can add in some additional time to pear down off that 6 weeks. Again, 2 weeks is a big speculation. We need actual hours spent, not a guess of 80 hours.

Now that they have 6 total weeks of vacation, they've worked a few less hours than the rest of us, they don't make a ton of money,

They do make a lot of money compared to the state median income (those paying their salary)


and early in their careers many teachers get laid off at the end of the school year each year and don't even know if they will have a job next year.

Welcome to 2013. I've had 3 jobs in 6 years and I would say I am probably the norm. Job security is a thing of the past for most if not all careers...unfortunately

Sorry, I don't feel that teachers are overpaid.
Thank you for your quick analysis. I agree with some points and feel that we need more precision on other estimates in order to reach a valid conclusion.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #92
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Everything that was in your post was assumed, except the time you drop off and pick up your kids.

Here are some facts, if you care to educate yourself, that support arguments that teachers are not only overpaid but also work less hours in a week than other professionals, and that is not accaccounting for the summer break:

http://www.aei.org/papers/education/...hool-teachers/

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011...mer-vacations/

But maybe they're just fucktarded.
I see nothing but statements in the AEI article. They provide no study data or references for the sources they draw their conclusion upon. This is a piss poor article in my opinion to use as a reference.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:01 PM   #93
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Being married to a teacher, a lot of this has made me lol.

My wife, with a dual masters, and several other endorsements, is lucky to find anything at around $42k/year.

Apparently she should seek a raise, because she is not being competitively compensated based on the income data provided by the state previously in the thread.

She has to have a minimum amount of continuing education credits a year to stay certified. Even with her being a stay at home mom the last 5 years, she has still had to take, and pay for continuing education credits. Not reimbursed, out of my paycheck.

Good information and helpful in our analysis. Thanks.

Did she get health insurance? Yes, in an HMO, with a deductible, and having a good portion of it deducted from her check.
Did she get a pension/ retirement plan? yes, not so great one, that once again she had to also pay into.

Pension, 401k/403b, or both?

When teaching, and average day would be leave house at 7am, get home around 4:30-5 (unless there were meetings, conference's, workshop etc that she had to attend which could go until 8 or 9 pm). After dinner she would either grade papers, or work on getting projects or lesson plans ready for the next day/week.

If you could estimate the average hours/week during the school year this would be very helpful

She hasn't gone back full time because the time requirements don't offset the salary at the moment when childcare during the day, and then extra curricular activities which also would require care are factored into everything.

She currently substitute when i'm home and she is able to. Although pay for that is a complete joke, almost embarrassing considering the qualifications.

Kickstand was spot on with his summer time off as well. At school for at least a week after kids are done. Back for meetings, getting classroom set-up, new curriculm equipment training etc 2 weeks before kids start., and then about a week of other meetings/training/ curriculum review etc in the summer.

Information on how many hours are spent per summer for this would be VERY helpful (you can provide a sum of all activities including classroom shutdown, classroom prep, meeting/training)

And the decision for my wife to be a stay at home mom, was helped to be made for us. At the end of that school year, of which if she was asked back the next year, would have had tenure, but that school, like several other, had a good reputation for keeping teachers just that long and then letting them go so they could hire in a new teacher, at a lower salary and not give tenure.

Sorry to hear. Job security in 2013 for all careers sucks and I fear for the future of our country
More questions, but thanks for the info.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:02 PM   #94
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Anybody that thinks a teacher should work a full 12 months out of the year without a break needs think what it would be like to babysit 30 screaming kids, 5 days a week, 48 weeks per year with ZERO ability to discipline them. I would go fucking nuts.

Then add in 30 sniveling kids with runny noses and diaharea that YOU have to tend to.

Then add in bitching parents or parents that won't even show up for meetings.

It's not as glamorous of a job as some would make it out to be.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #95
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My wife is also a teacher and I will 110% agree with those that are defending them. She puts in on average 60 hours a week during the school year, and yes, there are many things that are mandatory during her 'summer vacation'. And she is WELL below making the $75K-ish that people seem to think teachers get.

You are correct about half days. My wife is still required to put in a full day for 'professional development'.

"Teachers themselves report a mean work week of 43.7 hours, versus 44.8 hours for non-teachers with a college degree. Some teachers work more, some less, but overall their hours arenít tically different than other professionals. And if a teacher did report that he or she worked 60 hours per week, as many claim to, we counted it."

http://www.american.com/archive/2011...s-really-work/

Just because your wife claims to work 60 hours per week means that there is a teacher that works 28 hours per week. Math doesn't lie.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:05 PM   #96
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Also in addition to other things, most people do not realize that almost everything you "see" in a teachers room, was purchased by the teacher. Most any charts, graphs, visual aids of most any kind are not provided by the school system.

Basically the teacher is given the room, desk's, curriculum books, and paper, everything else has been purchased at the teachers expense.

This can also include games, flash cards etc. the numerous large Tupperware taking up space in my basement is testament to that.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #97
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Anybody that thinks a teacher should work a full 12 months out of the year without a break needs think what it would be like to babysit 30 screaming kids, 5 days a week, 48 weeks per year with ZERO ability to discipline them. I would go fucking nuts.

Then add in 30 sniveling kids with runny noses and diaharea that YOU have to tend to.

Then add in bitching parents or parents that won't even show up for meetings.

It's not as glamorous of a job as some would make it out to be.
exactly. well said
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #98
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I see nothing but statements in the AEI article. They provide no study data or references for the sources they draw their conclusion upon. This is a piss poor article in my opinion to use as a reference.
You either did not read it, or you missed it, or you're just making up stuff. BLS is clearly stated as one source.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:10 PM   #99
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Also you compared you wife into this as a nurse.

My mom is a nurse.

She originally only had a little over 2 years of college to first get certified and start working.
She also has to take some continuing education classes, not as expensive or long of classes that my wife, the teacher, has to.
She makes well over 100K/year Where? My wife is paid well for a nurse and doesn't make half of that
She had 6 weeks of vacation time she could use this year Again, my wife is no where close to 6 weeks (more like 2.5 weeks) and also has the privilege of working Holidays such as Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter Sunday...
She only works 3 - 4 days a week. Depends on the hospital and whether they work 8 or 12 hour shifts. My wife almost always has to skip lunch and often has to stay late to chart because they are understaffed. This is at a fairly large hospital network in SE michigan
Pay for the base 3 @ 12 hour shifts is that same as when is used to be 5 @ 8 hour shift, i.e. 36 hours work, for same pay as 40 hours of work. Not sure about this, my wife works 8s
Your Mom is lucky. My wife has worked for 4 different hospitals in 2 different cities and has never experienced this.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #100
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remember when this thread was about tsa losing his job.
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