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Old September 19th, 2013, 07:35 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by amc78cj7 View Post
And still this individual salary for 10 months of labor is well above the state median HOUSEHOLD income of $48,669; which in most cases reflects 12 months of labor, not 10 months.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26000.html

But back to the original point; I was not arguing that teachers are overpaid, I was comparing mymizzery who was paid income by my taxes for a period that he did not work, which is similar to teachers who are paid a hansom salary by my taxes for a period that they do not work. This has nothing to do with the original thread and so this is the last I will comment; however I am a little pissed at mymizzery who comes here to gloat that he screwed the system out of money, when "the system" is paid by my taxes.

I work my ass off for my money. You want a cut of my money to pay your salary, I expect that you will work at least 12 months for it. I'm not advocating 12 months of class, but perhaps they could spend June, July and August improving the school buildings and having department meetings to improve the curriculum rather than going on luxurious vacations and posting pictures all over FB.
It's sad, I KNOW you're a smart guy. But here you are looking like a damn idiot.

Government and the employees that work for it are just free right? Because they work for the government they are not entitled to being treated fairly, having vacation time, and other things that those of us who work in the private sector are granted due to labor laws?
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Old September 19th, 2013, 07:44 AM   #62
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And still this individual salary for 10 months of labor is well above the state median HOUSEHOLD income of $48,669; which in most cases reflects 12 months of labor, not 10 months.

As it should be! I for one have NO PROBLEM paying teachers more. It is called investing in our future and our kids futures. I don't want some underpaid, median quality type of worker teaching my kids. Teachers, fire fighters, soldiers and cops (besides Hancho, he is an idiot) should all get paid more. If teachers got paid 6 figures, I can guarantee we would have much better teachers and a better school system. The only people willing to go to school for 6 years to MAYBE find a job and make $35,000 to start are the ones who have a passion for teaching kids, not everyone who has that passion to teach is necessarily smrt or highly qualified. BTW, teachers have to put up with GL4x4 type on a daily basis.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:10 AM   #63
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Obviously none of you know how salary and wage information is collected and used. You have no idea how to compare such information. I have worked for BLS and ETA programs for 15 years and I am fluent in their methodology and the data. So you can keep your epithets to yourselves. Ad hominem responses only make obvious your inability to be open to new information. Therefore it is pointless for me to continue to teach you. Yes, this can be confusing and I can see how a lay person may believe that teachers are underpaid. This is simply not true.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:19 AM   #64
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Some teachers are worth it, some are not but they have the union to protect the ones that are not. Good teachers can inspire kids and steer them in the right direction. I view teachers salaries as an investment.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by howell_jeep View Post
Obviously none of you know how salary and wage information is collected and used. You have no idea how to compare such information. I have worked for BLS and ETA programs for 15 years and I am fluent in their methodology and the data. So you can keep your epithets to yourselves. Ad hominem responses only make obvious your inability to be open to new information. Therefore it is pointless for me to continue to teach you. Yes, this can be confusing and I can see how a lay person may believe that teachers are underpaid. This is simply not true.
Oh great one, The great and powerful all knowing Howell Jeep;

Arrogant much? I think GL4x4 is below your pay grade, your intelligence, and below your standard of living. Go away.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:32 AM   #66
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Some teachers are worth it, some are not but they have the union to protect the ones that are not. Good teachers can inspire kids and steer them in the right direction. I view teachers salaries as an investment.
I believe this is another thing that is no longer... as WhiteRhino pointed out, not everything is as it used to be. Teachers did lose a lot over the past few years.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:52 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by howell_jeep View Post
Obviously none of you know how salary and wage information is collected and used. You have no idea how to compare such information. I have worked for BLS and ETA programs for 15 years and I am fluent in their methodology and the data. So you can keep your epithets to yourselves. Ad hominem responses only make obvious your inability to be open to new information. Therefore it is pointless for me to continue to teach you. Yes, this can be confusing and I can see how a lay person may believe that teachers are underpaid. This is simply not true.

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Oh great one, The great and powerful all knowing Howell Jeep;

Arrogant much? I think GL4x4 is below your pay grade, your intelligence, and below your standard of living. Go away.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:55 AM   #68
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Oh great one, The great and powerful all knowing Howell Jeep;

Arrogant much? I think GL4x4 is below your pay grade, your intelligence, and below your standard of living. Go away.
Thanks for proving my point.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:02 AM   #69
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Thanks for proving my point.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:26 AM   #70
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It's sad, I KNOW you're a smart guy. But here you are looking like a damn idiot.

Government and the employees that work for it are just free right? Because they work for the government they are not entitled to being treated fairly, having vacation time, and other things that those of us who work in the private sector are granted due to labor laws?
You are completely missing the point, maybe I am not expressing my view clearly so let's try again.

Teachers have a very impactful job that should be compensated with fair wages and benefits (let's say 4 weeks vacation) that are par for people with a masters degree.

Teachers work 10 months out of the year, which is NOT consistent with the norm. For instance, I have a Masters degree, 20 years experience, and I get 3 weeks vacation per year, not 2 months.

I advocate that teachers continue to get paid fairly, but that they work 12 months out of the year (with vacation - stated so I'm not misquoted) for that income and use the 2 months that class is not being taught to improve the curriculum.

Now, as for the TSA guy who came back to work for 2 weeks then collected 2 months pay, I'd like to kick you in the nuts as that was my money you were stealing.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:28 AM   #71
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I advocate that teachers continue to get paid fairly, but that they work 12 months out of the year for that income and use the 2 months that class is not being taught to improve the curriculum.
Based on a graphic a teacher posted on Facebook the other day it sounds like that's kinda what happens now.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:32 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Mr.Green again View Post
As it should be! I for one have NO PROBLEM paying teachers more. It is called investing in our future and our kids futures. I don't want some underpaid, median quality type of worker teaching my kids. Teachers, fire fighters, soldiers and cops (besides Hancho, he is an idiot) should all get paid more. If teachers got paid 6 figures, I can guarantee we would have much better teachers and a better school system. The only people willing to go to school for 6 years to MAYBE find a job and make $35,000 to start are the ones who have a passion for teaching kids, not everyone who has that passion to teach is necessarily smrt or highly qualified. BTW, teachers have to put up with GL4x4 type on a daily basis.
My wife is a nurse. She works 40 hours/week and does not get 2 months off in the summer. She makes 2/3 of what teachers do. How should she be compensated? She works very hard, her job is very impactful. In fact, there are many jobs that are impactful and difficult that do not have nearly the compensation package of teachers. I'm only suggesting that the compensation of teachers be consistent with the rest of the market. How many companies still have a full pension for instance?
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #73
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This isn't China or some other communist or non-democratic nation, if you don't like the job you have or the compensation you're receiving you have the power to go somewhere else. If you haven't figured out by now that compensation isn't necessarily correlated to the "impact" you make then you need to open your eyes.

I agree with your comment about the guy coming back for 2 weeks to collect 2 months pay being BS.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #74
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My wife is a nurse. She works 40 hours/week and does not get 2 months off in the summer. She makes 2/3 of what teachers do. How should she be compensated? She works very hard, her job is very impactful. In fact, there are many jobs that are impactful and difficult that do not have nearly the compensation package of teachers. I'm only suggesting that the compensation of teachers be consistent with the rest of the market. How many companies still have a full pension for instance?
Is she an Rn, Lpn, nurse practitioner? Teachers have at least bachelors degrees, does your wife? Comparing apples to oranges is useless.

Also as previously stated, a teacher's job goes much farther than just working in the classroom. They have to make lesson plans, grade homework, go for recurrent training and etc. So with all of the time they spend outside of the classroom, I would say it helps to equalize the 2 month break they get.

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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:46 AM   #75
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You are completely missing the point, maybe I am not expressing my view clearly so let's try again.

Teachers have a very impactful job that should be compensated with fair wages and benefits (let's say 4 weeks vacation) that are par for people with a masters degree.
OK
Teachers work 10 months out of the year, which is NOT consistent with the norm. For instance, I have a Masters degree, 20 years experience, and I get 3 weeks vacation per year, not 2 months. Teachers work more than 10 months out of the year, there are 2080 working hours in a year. Stop counting days, and count the hours, remember, they are "salary"

I advocate that teachers continue to get paid fairly, but that they work 12 months out of the year (with vacation - stated so I'm not misquoted) for that income and use the 2 months that class is not being taught to improve the curriculum. What do you think they do during the summer? Sit at the pool for 30 years? They have mandatory continuing education and other projects, they also start going to school much sooner than our kids do, and the school year ends later for them to. But they get the full 3 months off that the kids do right? They get the time off between christmas and new years, so does 99% of the UAW......big deal.

Now, as for the TSA guy who came back to work for 2 weeks then collected 2 months pay, I'd like to kick you in the nuts as that was my money you were stealing.Oh, was it? He didn't earn it by being unfairly laid off? He didn't earn it through his years of service? quit being fucktarded. You would have done the EXACT same thing. So would ANYONE else with a fucking brain. He didn't screw up, his superiors who made the decision to lay him off unfairly screwed up, had they not he wouldn't have been eligible for that 2 months of pay and his EARNED vacation(Most companies will pay out your vacation when you leave, as it is typically considered "earned")
I don't think I am missing your point, I think that your point sucks.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:47 AM   #76
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I guess if we are talking impactful jobs, then Corrections Officers need raises too. We wear many different hats through the day and are directly involved with offender treatment. But instead the state took our pension and with this bargaining session with the union they want more.....
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #77
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This isn't China or some other communist or non-democratic nation, if you don't like the job you have or the compensation you're receiving you have the power to go somewhere else. If you haven't figured out by now that compensation isn't necessarily correlated to the "impact" you make then you need to open your eyes.

I agree with your comment about the guy coming back for 2 weeks to collect 2 months pay being BS.
Market demand and performance almost always dictate compensation in a free-market. Taking this into consideration, Michigan teachers are the third highest paid in the country, yet how do Michigan schools perform on a national level? 28th.

http://www.usnews.com/education/high...hools-rankings

I have no problem paying fair wages with my tax dollars, but how about working through the summer like the rest of us to make sure that we are ranked in the top 5 in the nation if we are paying the top 5 in the nation (an amazing statistic given that we have one of the lowest median incomes in the country as a whole).
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #78
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You are completely missing the point, maybe I am not expressing my view clearly so let's try again.

Teachers have a very impactful job that should be compensated with fair wages and benefits (let's say 4 weeks vacation) that are par for people with a masters degree.

Teachers work 10 months out of the year, which is NOT consistent with the norm. For instance, I have a Masters degree, 20 years experience, and I get 3 weeks vacation per year, not 2 months.

I advocate that teachers continue to get paid fairly, but that they work 12 months out of the year (with vacation - stated so I'm not misquoted) for that income and use the 2 months that class is not being taught to improve the curriculum.

Now, as for the TSA guy who came back to work for 2 weeks then collected 2 months pay, I'd like to kick you in the nuts as that was my money you were stealing.
What's stopping you from finding a job that offers 2 months of vacation per year? If you could find one that paid the same would you stay where you are now? What if someone thought your 3 weeks vacation were too much and you should only have 1.5 weeks?
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:56 AM   #79
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I don't think I am missing your point, I think that your point sucks.
I would be interested in more information on how many hours are worked by teachers so we can calculate how many "days off" they get. Perhaps I am missing the point, but I won't know without this information.

As an fyi, my wife has to do continuing education courses to keep her nurses certification valid. She does not count that as "paid" time, it is required but not compensated.

I had to go back to school to get my masters degree in order to remain employed. I did not get paid for the 20 hrs/week that I was taking classes and doing homework, and I had to pay for my own classes.

In other words, when you provide the information let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples and not calling teachers "CE" time as work time. To pre-establish criteria, we will base the calculations on 40 hour / week, and you can include time working from home (ie grading papers, etc), even though this is not the case with many salary workers in the free market.

If it turns out that teachers only take 3-4 weeks off/year including vacation and sick time, then I will shut up. Forever. You will never hear me complain about this issue again.
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Old September 19th, 2013, 09:58 AM   #80
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What's stopping you from finding a job that offers 2 months of vacation per year? If you could find one that paid the same would you stay where you are now? What if someone thought your 3 weeks vacation were too much and you should only have 1.5 weeks?
My perspective in this argument is that of the "payer". I don't think any adult should take 2 months off each year. I have no problem working my full time job, but since I'm paying the salary of the teachers, I expect that they too should be working full-time (ie 12 months).
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