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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:07 AM   #141
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How is it rational to believe that something doesn't exist without proof, but irrational to believe that something does exist without proof.
Ok, Two statements.

I do not believe that gods exist.

I believe that gods don't exist.

They sound quite similar, but are very different. One is withholding belief and the other is purporting a belief. See the difference?

Is it irrational to withhold from belief in something until you have evidence that convinces you?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:37 AM   #142
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Ya'll are WAAAAY to cautious and skeptical. All this "no risk" stuff from a bunch of 4wheeing dudes, lol
When wheeling I don't usually fly over hills without knowing something about whats on the other side or plunge into holes without having some idea how deep it is.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 12:02 PM   #143
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Ok, Two statements.

I do not believe that gods exist.

I believe that gods don't exist.

They sound quite similar, but are very different. One is withholding belief and the other is purporting a belief. See the difference?

Is it irrational to withhold from belief in something until you have evidence that convinces you?
Either way you're basing a decision regarding your beliefs on something that can not be proven.

Kerwin, Aber, L4CX, and the other Christians claim to have been convinced by their experience that there is a God, others have been convinced by their experience that there is no God. Your experience has lead you to not belief that God exist. My experience has given me no strong indication one way or the other.

Who are any of us to judge what is "rational" to another person?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 01:04 PM   #144
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Who are any of us to judge what is "rational" to another person?
Which is why our founding fathers gave us freedom of religion. End of discussion.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 01:09 PM   #145
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Nuggets, I've often heard you refer to yourself as a deist. What evidence did you use to come to that type of god belief? I'm not asking you to defend your your beliefs, just curious as to how you came to that conclusion?
That's not easily explained, Mike. I am not a Christian because the Bible has been overwhelmingly proven to be wrong in it's teachings. A simple matter of extrapolation gives me the evidence I need to dismiss it. My religious standing can not really be pigeon holed and my basis for my belief system comes from personal observations and a personal "faith". Since I can not prove my belief system and I don't care if anybody thinks like I do or not, I don't tell people that my way of thinking is best for them. However, when someone claims their way of thinking is the only way, I tend to be on the vocal side.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:05 PM   #146
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Either way you're basing a decision regarding your beliefs on something that can not be proven.



Kerwin, Aber, L4CX, and the other Christians claim to have been convinced by their experience that there is a God, others have been convinced by their experience that there is no God. Your experience has lead you to not belief that God exist. My experience has given me no strong indication one way or the other.

Who are any of us to judge what is "rational" to another person?
Bruce, it sounds like you think that your views/beliefs, whatever, are wholly different than mine, while I don't think that is true.

Would you agree that there are two possible answers to the question, "Do you believe in god(s)? Yes and No, being the two possible answers?

If you agree with this, then please respond to the following question, "Do you believe in God?

If you answered Yes, then you would be considered a theist.

If you answer No, You would be considered an atheist. This is the camp I am in, until I come up with some kind of evidence that would send me to the "believe" camp.

Please don't respond with, "I don't know", because that is not the question that I posed.


Also, I'm not judging or claiming that Aber, Kerwin, or LC4X are irrational, well, maybe Aber, but not here and now. I merely said that I think that it is rational to withhold belief until you have suitable evidence. They may have their evidence, however, in my opinion, it is anecdotal to them, and isn't enough to convince me.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:06 PM   #147
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That's not easily explained, Mike. I am not a Christian because the Bible has been overwhelmingly proven to be wrong in it's teachings. A simple matter of extrapolation gives me the evidence I need to dismiss it. My religious standing can not really be pigeon holed and my basis for my belief system comes from personal observations and a personal "faith". Since I can not prove my belief system and I don't care if anybody thinks like I do or not, I don't tell people that my way of thinking is best for them. However, when someone claims their way of thinking is the only way, I tend to be on the vocal side.
ok.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:09 PM   #148
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It's not that simple. To believe something is true, you have to be convinced by evidence. I have none to go by, therefore I can't just will myself to believe and have faith. Do you understand what I'm saying?
I can say for me and what God has done and shown me He is real. I would ask you to put aside your need for evidence, see, feel touch need.
Put on your pretty little red shoes, click your heals together 3 times and repeat,
I know he's real, I know he's real, I know he's real. Just kidding.
It is something like blind faith because God has not shown himself to you, Yet.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:25 PM   #149
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I can't wrap my mind around that concept. If I found indisputable proof that some god existed, it would profoundly change my life.
A guy by the name of Louie Gigleo, he speaks to college kids, he has a great few dvd's that would really spark your interest in The Creator.
Check him out
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:27 PM   #150
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You didn't grab that chair and press down on it before you sat in it just now, did you? How do you know someone didnt intentionally weaken the legs to set you up for a fall? You didn't check, you sat down in faith that it was capable. Previous life experience told you it was ok to sit down without inviting a group of scientists, and without pressing down on the seat before sitting on it.

In the same way, I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. I heard the testimony of others, I considered it before I trusted Him. After doing so, I gained experience that showed me that I am able to continue to trust God in the absense of his physical presence (this was the advantage the disciples had 2000 years ago). Just as you gained confidence that your desk chair can support your weight, I have gone from glory to glory with God. I realize that to someone standing outside of the faith that it seems illogical. That it seems unreasonable. That it seems undoable. That it seems silly. That it seems childish. I suppose what I am getting at is that when you encouter Christ in a way that completely revolutionizes your insides, you can't exactly go backwards at that point. God's Grace draws us in, and it does so in an ongoing fashion.
Where is the LIKE button?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:34 PM   #151
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Dave, I am sorry but you are grasping with this analogy. You can not use an analogy to compare a tangible item and an intagible item in the way that you are doing so.

No matter how you argue it faith is not a tangible item and is personal to the person who has it, where as a seat is a tangible item and everyone can see it in the same light, it can be measured, weighed, tested for strength, repeatedly, reliably and consistently. Your faith can only be measured by you, and you can not share or show those measurements to anyone else.
I am painting a picture for how and why the Christian man can use his brain while at the same time using his heart to believe. I never claimed they were the same. Instead, I used the analogy to show that faith is often started as a weak item (as Jesus said, the size of a mustard seed) and it grows. So while from the outside it may appear silly, it is the opposite as God reveals himself to you. Hope this makes sense. I additionally wanted to prove that the skeptics among us, those that hold tight to science, don't practice these ideas as much as they think (ie, sitting down without doing lab tests on chair). I think you see what I am getting at with all of that.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:36 PM   #152
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When wheeling I don't usually fly over hills without knowing something about whats on the other side or plunge into holes without having some idea how deep it is.
The Bruce I know would lead the pack and be the first to crest the hill, then call back and say to go easy. There is no reward without risk. Everyone acts sooo cautious with everything but faith, it is a different standard. Faith is scarier.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 02:37 PM   #153
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Which is why our founding fathers gave us freedom of religion. End of discussion.
MURICA!!!!!
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 03:13 PM   #154
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I am painting a picture for how and why the Christian man can use his brain while at the same time using his heart to believe. I never claimed they were the same. Instead, I used the analogy to show that faith is often started as a weak item (as Jesus said, the size of a mustard seed) and it grows. So while from the outside it may appear silly, it is the opposite as God reveals himself to you. Hope this makes sense. I additionally wanted to prove that the skeptics among us, those that hold tight to science, don't practice these ideas as much as they think (ie, sitting down without doing lab tests on chair). I think you see what I am getting at with all of that.
I was with you on the first half of your post, nodding my head and saying ok, thats fair.

But then you went back to the chair, you're right, WE didn't perform the lab test on the chair, but again, that information is available, tangible, documented, accounted for, etc.

Faith is not. So if it begins as a sliver of hope and then grows that is all well and good, that part I can understand. But the chair never started that way, it's always been there, we didn't have to believe in it to use it.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 04:32 PM   #155
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Bruce, it sounds like you think that your views/beliefs, whatever, are wholly different than mine, while I don't think that is true.

Would you agree that there are two possible answers to the question, "Do you believe in god(s)? Yes and No, being the two possible answers?

If you agree with this, then please respond to the following question, "Do you believe in God?

If you answered Yes, then you would be considered a theist.

If you answer No, You would be considered an atheist. This is the camp I am in, until I come up with some kind of evidence that would send me to the "believe" camp.

Please don't respond with, "I don't know", because that is not the question that I posed.


Also, I'm not judging or claiming that Aber, Kerwin, or LC4X are irrational, well, maybe Aber, but not here and now. I merely said that I think that it is rational to withhold belief until you have suitable evidence. They may have their evidence, however, in my opinion, it is anecdotal to them, and isn't enough to convince me.
So in your yes, no, black, white world of absolutes if I have not decided that I believe in god I am an atheist? I disagree with that definition. As far as I know an atheist is someone who believe that gods do not exist.

I reject the premise that yes and no are the only acceptable answers to your question. My answer is that I do not have enough information to formulate an opinion either way, and I don't know if enough information will actually ever be available to me to form an opinion. As far as I know that defines me as an agnostic.

You don't seem to understand the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 04:52 PM   #156
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So in your yes, no, black, white world of absolutes if I have not decided that I believe in god I am an atheist? I disagree with that definition. As far as I know an atheist is someone who believe that gods do not exist.

We're back to the definition of the words.

I reject the premise that yes and no are the only acceptable answers to your question. My answer is that I do not have enough information to formulate an opinion either way, and I don't know if enough information will actually ever be available to me to form an opinion. As far as I know that defines me as an agnostic.

I agree with the portion in red. I am in the same boat, therefore I don't have a belief in a god. i'm not saying that it's not possible for a god to exist, just that I don't have a current belief in one, keeping an open mind.

How can you reject that yes and no are the only acceptable answers? it's a yes or no question. What other options are there?


You don't seem to understand the difference between an atheist and an agnostic.
No, Bruce, I think you're confused on the terminology...and very uncomfortable with the term atheist.






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Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:05 PM   #157
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:19 PM   #158
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No, Bruce, I think you're confused on the terminology...and very uncomfortable with the term atheist.
I'm fine with the term atheist, I just do not agree with you on it's meaning. An Atheist has decided how they feel about it, I have not.

a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.


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How can you reject that yes and no are the only acceptable answers? it's a yes or no question. What other options are there?
Not knowing. It is a concept that most westerners seem to have a tough time with. In the Zen Buddhist practice I've been studying lately this is an important concept. Once you accept not knowing you become more open to new ideas.

When I do not have enough information I say i do not know and try not to form beliefs about things I do not know about.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:21 PM   #159
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There's the difference.

You see atheism as a lack of belief, I see it and a disbelief or denial.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 05:46 PM   #160
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There's the difference.

You see atheism as a lack of belief, I see it and a disbelief or denial.
I'm with Bruce here. In that first picture Mike posted of the arrows/boxes I don't definitively fall into any of them.
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