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Old August 22nd, 2013, 06:58 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
It's not that simple. To believe something is true, you have to be convinced by evidence. I have none to go by, therefore I can't just will myself to believe and have faith. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Some people seem to be quite capable of believing in things with no evidence of truth.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:11 AM   #122
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Describe evidence. What you read on the internet?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:12 AM   #123
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Exactly my point. We need more proof before we sit down at the computer! I don't trust chairs until I go through vigorous scientific tests.
Except, that isn't a very good example. You can see, feel, touch, hold, sit on, and even watch others sit on a chair, something you can not do with the faith of religion.

sure, I could watch you pray (or sit silently), i can watch you praise god (or speak to the man upstairs that you see and i don't), etc.

Further, we all "know" that a company will not be able to sell and manufacture chairs without putting them through some amount of testing and have some sort of track record, or it would hurt their business's image and cost them future sale, or possibly lawsuits, or what not.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:16 AM   #124
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I would say that atheism is simply the default position on the topic of religion for a skeptic. There are just so many other things to be skeptical of. It'd be like saying that not believing in sasquatch was an overall mindset. Replace the word "atheism" with "skepticism" in what i quoted and I would agree.
Valid point. I am not an Atheist but I am an incredible skeptic.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:31 AM   #125
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Except, that isn't a very good example. You can see, feel, touch, hold, sit on, and even watch others sit on a chair, something you can not do with the faith of religion.

sure, I could watch you pray (or sit silently), i can watch you praise god (or speak to the man upstairs that you see and i don't), etc.

Further, we all "know" that a company will not be able to sell and manufacture chairs without putting them through some amount of testing and have some sort of track record, or it would hurt their business's image and cost them future sale, or possibly lawsuits, or what not.
You didn't grab that chair and press down on it before you sat in it just now, did you? How do you know someone didnt intentionally weaken the legs to set you up for a fall? You didn't check, you sat down in faith that it was capable. Previous life experience told you it was ok to sit down without inviting a group of scientists, and without pressing down on the seat before sitting on it.

In the same way, I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. I heard the testimony of others, I considered it before I trusted Him. After doing so, I gained experience that showed me that I am able to continue to trust God in the absense of his physical presence (this was the advantage the disciples had 2000 years ago). Just as you gained confidence that your desk chair can support your weight, I have gone from glory to glory with God. I realize that to someone standing outside of the faith that it seems illogical. That it seems unreasonable. That it seems undoable. That it seems silly. That it seems childish. I suppose what I am getting at is that when you encouter Christ in a way that completely revolutionizes your insides, you can't exactly go backwards at that point. God's Grace draws us in, and it does so in an ongoing fashion.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:36 AM   #126
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Except, that isn't a very good example. You can see, feel, touch, hold, sit on, and even watch others sit on a chair, something you can not do with the faith of religion.

sure, I could watch you pray (or sit silently), i can watch you praise god (or speak to the man upstairs that you see and i don't), etc.

Further, we all "know" that a company will not be able to sell and manufacture chairs without putting them through some amount of testing and have some sort of track record, or it would hurt their business's image and cost them future sale, or possibly lawsuits, or what not.
And even then, I normally wouldn't just "plop down" in an unfamiliar chair without at least a quick look to see if it is in good repair and of a construction that will hold my weight.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 08:37 AM   #127
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Ya'll are WAAAAY to cautious and skeptical. All this "no risk" stuff from a bunch of 4wheeing dudes, lol
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:36 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
You didn't grab that chair and press down on it before you sat in it just now, did you? How do you know someone didnt intentionally weaken the legs to set you up for a fall? You didn't check, you sat down in faith that it was capable. Previous life experience told you it was ok to sit down without inviting a group of scientists, and without pressing down on the seat before sitting on it.
You can make those arguments, but the difference is there is a chair present when you go to sit down. Religion is saying "Sit down in the open air and there will be a chair there if you believe one to be." Except religion has the convenience of being sold as redeemable upon death, so when you do go to sit down it is never revealed whether you fell to the floor or not.

Last edited by Ebs; August 22nd, 2013 at 09:41 AM.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:38 AM   #129
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You can make those arguments, but the difference is there is a chair there when you go to sit down. Religion is saying "Sit down in the open air and there will be a chair there if you believe one to be." Except religion has the convince of being sold as redeemable upon death, so when you do go to sit down it is never revealed whether you fell to the floor or not.
Yup.

When people start comparing god and religion to tangible, concrete items, they're grasping at straws.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:40 AM   #130
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You can make those arguments, but the difference is there is a chair there when you go to sit down. Religion is saying "Sit down in the open air and there will be a chair there if you believe one to be." Except religion has the convince of being sold as redeemable upon death, so when you do go to sit down it is never revealed whether you fell to the floor or not.
You did no respond to my explanation. See a few above. I addressed this.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:47 AM   #131
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Religious people seem to have their own definition of what a Fact is. Unfortunatly it is not the same type of Fact that is generally accepted to rational thinkers and skeptics. Because of this, there will be virtually no convincing by either party to get the other to change their line of thought.

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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:48 AM   #132
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:50 AM   #133
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I would rather believe in God and find out there is not one, than not believe in God and find out there is when I die.
This statement in and of itself proves that you do not believe. If you truly believe then you don't believe that it is possible to find out he doesn't exist.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:52 AM   #134
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To say that believers are irrational implies that you have an argument superior to those of the faith. Please present your rational argument that proves there is no God and we can agree that believers are irrational.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 09:54 AM   #135
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Valid point. I am not an Atheist but I am an incredible skeptic.
Nuggets, I've often heard you refer to yourself as a deist. What evidence did you use to come to that type of god belief? I'm not asking you to defend your your beliefs, just curious as to how you came to that conclusion?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:00 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Describe evidence. What you read on the internet?
Evidence would basically be any reason/event/etc. that I came across that would warrant belief.

I suppose for me to believe in Jesus Christ, I would have to have some kind of personal experience that would convince me that he was real. Something along him appearing to me and talking to me, probably. A blurry image burned into toast probably wouldn't do it for me.

However, even if this were to happen to me, I wouldn't expect my anecdotal evidence to be a reason to convince another skeptic.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:03 AM   #137
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To say that believers are irrational implies that you have an argument superior to those of the faith. Please present your rational argument that proves there is no God and we can agree that believers are irrational.
I don't have to prove that something doesn't exist for it to be rational to withhold belief in it. You understand that, right?
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:18 AM   #138
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I don't have to prove that something doesn't exist for it to be rational to withhold belief in it. You understand that, right?
I can't prove rational thought doesn't exist.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 10:45 AM   #139
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I don't have to prove that something doesn't exist for it to be rational to withhold belief in it. You understand that, right?
How is it rational to believe that something doesn't exist without proof, but irrational to believe that something does exist without proof.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:04 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dave Kerwin View Post
You didn't grab that chair and press down on it before you sat in it just now, did you? How do you know someone didnt intentionally weaken the legs to set you up for a fall? You didn't check, you sat down in faith that it was capable. Previous life experience told you it was ok to sit down without inviting a group of scientists, and without pressing down on the seat before sitting on it.

In the same way, I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. I heard the testimony of others, I considered it before I trusted Him. After doing so, I gained experience that showed me that I am able to continue to trust God in the absense of his physical presence (this was the advantage the disciples had 2000 years ago). Just as you gained confidence that your desk chair can support your weight, I have gone from glory to glory with God. I realize that to someone standing outside of the faith that it seems illogical. That it seems unreasonable. That it seems undoable. That it seems silly. That it seems childish. I suppose what I am getting at is that when you encouter Christ in a way that completely revolutionizes your insides, you can't exactly go backwards at that point. God's Grace draws us in, and it does so in an ongoing fashion.
Dave, I am sorry but you are grasping with this analogy. You can not use an analogy to compare a tangible item and an intagible item in the way that you are doing so.

No matter how you argue it faith is not a tangible item and is personal to the person who has it, where as a seat is a tangible item and everyone can see it in the same light, it can be measured, weighed, tested for strength, repeatedly, reliably and consistently. Your faith can only be measured by you, and you can not share or show those measurements to anyone else.
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