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Old August 21st, 2013, 11:44 AM   #61
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No need, I've studied the bible more than I ever need to.

I know they are not "true", but it still shows there are many contradictions in the bible. I'm not saying that the contradictions in the bible make it all false. Even when I was a practicing Catholic, I didn't take the bible literally. Some people (like aber61) take it as literally as if it were a chemistry book.
God probably invented/created chemistry too
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:07 PM   #62
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No need, I've studied the bible more than I ever need to.
Will be the last thing he says to St. Peter.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:10 PM   #63
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God probably invented/created chemistry too
Chemistry is the study of something that occurs in nature. If you believe that God created all things, then yes, God did create the chemistry which is the building blocks and processes of all creation. We are just observers, trying to map out how it works.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:14 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
No need, I've studied the bible more than I ever need to.

I know they are not "true", but it still shows there are many contradictions in the bible. I'm not saying that the contradictions in the bible make it all false. Even when I was a practicing Catholic, I didn't take the bible literally. Some people (like aber61) take it as literally as if it were a chemistry book.
Ok. With all fairness, then, don't come on here making claims about this and that if you are not willing to defend your position. Since you are a Bible scholar, you probably already knew those were not contradictions
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:20 PM   #65
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Ok. With all fairness, then, don't come on here making claims about this and that if you are not willing to defend your position. Since you are a Bible scholar, you probably already knew those were not contradictions
I would still view them as contradictions, at face value. Read between the lines, and they really aren't. However I'm an engineer, so when it comes to things in print, I view it black & white.

The four gospels aren't the only examples of contradiction out of the bible. Again, not a big deal if you don't take the bible literally. I know you probably don't, as you probably don't believe Adam & Eve truly existed. Aber on the other hand, believes the world is only a few thousand years old because the bible says so.....
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:22 PM   #66
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My observations are simple.
There are smart people who believe and smart people who do not believe.
There are dumb people who believe and dumb people do not believe.

Any one of the above catagories will not be able to change the mind of any of the other catagories. Part of the belief is faith, which those who do not believe, don't have.

Simple as that and no amount of argueing will change it. Therefore, I do not argue/debate it.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:25 PM   #67
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Why would I care about what? I'm engaged in this conversation because I am always amazed at how much closedmindedness exists in the religious world.
I've never once said you have to believe this but, from what I believe, to tell God he is wrong and you are right, is arrogant. If you don't believe in him then what does it matter?

I just get frustrated when people say I don't believe in a God because he didn't/doesn't do this. Does that make sense? It's lunacy. You can't give a reason for disbelieving in something and use that something. Just like you can't define a word by using the same word to define itself.


I see how you could turn that argument around though. Christians do tend to use the "because he's God card" alot. I try to stay away from it. I believe in God because I've had experiences that point me to the God that I raised to believe in. Very Specific, very personal. Saying that, though, is not me saying God exists but it's me saying I've seen God and he's made himself known by X.

You also have to admit there is a two way street in the closed mindedness from your side as well. I mean, a couple of the links that GM posted were very closed minded. Not because the people are bad or horrible people, they just can't use their scientific method to prove things that are out of the scope of Science. Which, I hope, would show that there are things that Science cannot yet explain. I'm willing to accept anything science can prove to me in front of my face but also accept things that I may not be able to explain that line up with a book that I believe to be inspired by God.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:30 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
My observations are simple.
There are smart people who believe and smart people who do not believe.
There are dumb people who believe and dumb people do not believe.

Any one of the above catagories will not be able to change the mind of any of the other catagories. Part of the belief is faith, which those who do not believe, don't have.

Simple as that and no amount of argueing will change it. Therefore, I do not argue/debate it.
There is no room for logic in a religious debate. Move along.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:44 PM   #69
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I would still view them as contradictions, at face value. Read between the lines, and they really aren't. However I'm an engineer, so when it comes to things in print, I view it black & white.

The four gospels aren't the only examples of contradiction out of the bible. Again, not a big deal if you don't take the bible literally. I know you probably don't, as you probably don't believe Adam & Eve truly existed. Aber on the other hand, believes the world is only a few thousand years old because the bible says so.....
If you view it in black and white, then you would not have made the claim that you did.

I take the Bible literally, word for word, except when its painfully obvious that a figure of speech was used (for example, when Jesus said that it would be better for us to pull the plank out of our own eye instead of pointing to the spec of dust in our neighbor's eye; he was not literally saying we have a log protruding from our heads). I do believe Adam was a real man made out of mud by Jesus himself, and I do believe Eve was created from Adam's rib. I taste a pre-planned rebuttal here, I may or may not take the hook this time, as I already know you don't want to defend your last statement.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:51 PM   #70
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If you view it in black and white, then you would not have made the claim that you did.

I take the Bible literally, word for word, except when its painfully obvious that a figure of speech was used (for example, when Jesus said that it would be better for us to pull the plank out of our own eye instead of pointing to the spec of dust in our neighbor's eye; he was not literally saying we have a log protruding from our heads). I do believe Adam was a real man made out of mud by Jesus himself, and I do believe Eve was created from Adam's rib. I taste a pre-planned rebuttal here, I may or may not take the hook this time, as I already know you don't want to defend your last statement.
What statement do I not want to defend? I wasn't trying to argue with you in the first place, just Aber who believes the bible word for word without any thought into questioning it, or getting the message behind it.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:02 PM   #71
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I'm an engineer, ..
When did you become an engineer?
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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:09 PM   #72
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I've never once said you have to believe this but, from what I believe, to tell God he is wrong and you are right, is arrogant. If you don't believe in him then what does it matter? Since I don't believe in him I did not see my statement as arrogant at all, I simply felt his unwillingness to think that there is a way other than his word was closedminded, or even arrogant looking back. Hence why I didn't really think my statement deserved the term arrogant.

I just get frustrated when people say I don't believe in a God because he didn't/doesn't do this. Does that make sense? That's fair, but doesn't do what? I mean I get the whole he didn't save my sister so I dont believe, thats crap, god isn't "there" to just save everyone, that's not what I gather true believers expect him to do. .... I choose not to believe simply because it all seems very "made up" to me, it doesn't mean I am right or wrong, I just tend to live in a more we make our own bed kinda world, a we make things happen for ourselves, I am not one to believe in miracles, or prayer, or any of that, that's just my choice. It's lunacy. You can't give a reason for disbelieving in something and use that something. Just like you can't define a word by using the same word to define itself.


I see how you could turn that argument around though. Christians do tend to use the "because he's God card" alot.Thank you. I try to stay away from it. I believe in God because I've had experiences that point me to the God that I raised to believe in. Very Specific, very personal. Saying that, though, is not me saying God exists but it's me saying I've seen God and he's made himself known by X. And that is fair, I myself on the other hand didn't have those experiences, likely because I have chosen not to believe in him, making it nearly impossible if he exists, to show himself to me....

You also have to admit there is a two way street in the closed mindedness from your side as well. I mean, a couple of the links that GM posted were very closed minded. Not because the people are bad or horrible people, they just can't use their scientific method to prove things that are out of the scope of Science. Which, I hope, would show that there are things that Science cannot yet explain. I'm willing to accept anything science can prove to me in front of my face but also accept things that I may not be able to explain that line up with a book that I believe to be inspired by God.
It is most definitely a two way street, but I don't put a lot of credence into the links that GM posted, i'm not that interested in going that far to either extreme with it.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:21 PM   #73
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What statement do I not want to defend? I wasn't trying to argue with you in the first place, just Aber who believes the bible word for word without any thought into questioning it, or getting the message behind it.
You wanted to claim the Bible is filled with contradictions. You presented a link that listed three claims. I told you I could prove to you they are not contradictions. I then offered to prove it to you if you wanted to consider it, and you declined. I am suggesting that one should only make a claim such as that if they can back it up.

If I were to say to you that believing in Jesus Christ is MORE logical than believing in blind evolution theory, then I should be able to give reasons why. (Side note, I believe that faith in Jesus Christ is more logical than faith in evolution, but I won't begin that here).
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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:26 PM   #74
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You wanted to claim the Bible is filled with contradictions. You presented a link that listed three claims. I told you I could prove to you they are not contradictions. I then offered to prove it to you if you wanted to consider it, and you declined. I am suggesting that one should only make a claim such as that if they can back it up.

If I were to say to you that believing in Jesus Christ is MORE logical than believing in blind evolution theory, then I should be able to give reasons why. (Side note, I believe that faith in Jesus Christ is more logical than faith in evolution, but I won't begin that here).
I was simply arguing Aber's statement that the bible has zero contradictions and is historically accurate.

Is it really that hard to prove the contradictions? Compare the teachings in the Old and New Testament. Done.

I was trying to be nice so you didn't waste your time on me. My apologies.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:36 PM   #75
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I am able to explain to you why all three claimed contradictions are not true. Before I spend a lot of time doing so, please first express to me that you are open to consider it. Seriously. Thanks
I am always open to consideration but keep in mind I will verify all claims and information using the scientific method.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 01:39 PM   #76
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I was simply arguing Aber's statement that the bible has zero contradictions and is historically accurate.

Is it really that hard to prove the contradictions? Compare the teachings in the Old and New Testament. Done.

I was trying to be nice so you didn't waste your time on me. My apologies.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 02:41 PM   #77
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In a way, atheism can be considered a religion since it is still a belief held by a group of people.

No. Of all the people that I would expect to say that, I wouldn't have thought it would be you.

Actually, the only thing that ALL atheist have in common is their NON-belief in any religion. The term atheism doesn't claim any belief, just the non-belief.

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Old August 21st, 2013, 02:47 PM   #78
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No. Of all the people that I would expect to say that, I wouldn't have thought it would be you.

Actually, the only thing that ALL atheist have in common is their NON-belief in any religion. The term atheism doesn't claim any belief, just the non-belief.

OK, I believe you.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 02:51 PM   #79
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I was simply arguing Aber's statement that the bible has zero contradictions and is historically accurate.

Is it really that hard to prove the contradictions? Compare the teachings in the Old and New Testament. Done.

I was trying to be nice so you didn't waste your time on me. My apologies.
Abe isn't unique in believeing the Bible for what it says.

If you want to talk about OT and NT, I would be happy to do that.

Thanks for your honesty in your response. No apology necessary. Just tossing the ball back in your court at the same speed it came into mine :)
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Old August 21st, 2013, 02:51 PM   #80
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OK, I believe you.


Look at the common components of what is considered a religion and see if atheism stacks up.
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