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Old September 2nd, 2013, 01:28 PM   #301
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Just because you don't believe, it does not make it any less true.
Just because you believe it doesn't make it any less fake or made up
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 01:29 PM   #302
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I hate to go all Rockstar and post random internet images but I read this quote and thought of this thread:


I think technically that would be a Kevin Smith quote..... just sayin....
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 01:39 PM   #303
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Actually, yes. Because there are scientists working on this now, and are hoping to find an answer through observation with better equipment.

Even if the ultimate answer turns out to be 'we don't know', I find that more acceptable than saying 'you need faith'.... which is just another way of saying 'I don't know either, but trust me it was God'.

And personally, I don't really care how the universe was formed, or how it will end. I wasn't there for the former, and I won't be around for the latter.
The only answer that science can give is that matter itself has eternal qualities. Think about that again. MATTER is ETERNAL. How ridiculous can the faith community be for believing in an eternal being as a first cause more than matter being eternal with no cause? The greater faith is by that of "science" who has no evidence, but rather by faith, believe such things. And the "we are working on it" stance is weak, there is no ground but faith. Remember that as you find faith to be so difficult, it is more what you are comfortable putting your faith into.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 01:48 PM   #304
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Are you more comfortable asking who or what created matter that lead to the big bang?
This has always been an interested concept to me. On the Christian side, when asked about who made God, I've been told that God has always been and was never created. This same aurgument can also be used for the matter contained in the Universe. I personally don't agree with the "Everything from nothing" concept of the Big Bang. I believe the Big Bang happened because there is an overwhelming amount of evidence to support it (read up on Red Shift as one form of evidence). What I don't personally believe is that everything just "appeared". The cornerstone of my thought process is that Time is nothing more than a human construct and does not apply in the grand process of the Universe. Evidence of this can be found when observing rapidly moving objects such as Singularities. Because ALL the rules of the physical Universe are thrown out the window when dealing with these objects, I think rigidly expecting a starting point for Matter is unrealistic. I guess my hypothesis about the Big Bang is that it is not truly the begining of our universe but insted is a product of the constant wax and wane of what universes do. Essentially, my thoughts are the Universe goes through periodic "big bangs" along with big collapses. The time frame that this happens is almost infathomable to us humans but the Universe does not care.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 01:55 PM   #305
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The only answer that science can give is that matter itself has eternal qualities. Think about that again. MATTER is ETERNAL. How ridiculous can the faith community be for believing in an eternal being as a first cause more than matter being eternal with no cause? The greater faith is by that of "science" who has no evidence, but rather by faith, believe such things. And the "we are working on it" stance is weak, there is no ground but faith. Remember that as you find faith to be so difficult, it is more what you are comfortable putting your faith into.
Not 'zackly. Matter can be destroyed, it's energy that cannot be destroyed. Destroying matter creates- or more correctly- returns matter to it's energetic state. Using energy to create matter does not destroy the energy, the energy can be released by destroying the matter.

That is the very very basic idea behind how stars are 'born and die'. Also serves as a basic model of nuclear fission.

If one perceives the energy that permeates the universe as 'God', I don't have an issue with that. The idea of 'God' as represented in art is misleading- it puts a human form upon God and narrows the perspective.

And yes- I am aware of the Bible quote of 'God made man in his own image' (I'm paraphrasing) but again- the Bible was written down by Man, and translated many times. There is the possibility of (gasp!) error. Unless the Men that God spoke to were infallible, as were all the translators......
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 02:10 PM   #306
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Remember, that if matter can accidentally become more complex, and evolution can occur inside and against the law of thermodynamics, and while everything we observe breaks down, yet we fight against that and evolve... if you can be convinced to believe all of that, how is it a stretch that a God capable of making an entire universe is unable to make sure his word is accurately recorded?

You either believe that God is eternal and matter is not, or that matter is eternal and that God is dead. I find no evidence for the latter.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 02:17 PM   #307
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My point of view is that God is a construct of Man to help him understand the Universe.
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 09:36 PM   #308
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My point of view is that God is a construct of Man to help him understand the Universe.
And my point of view is that unfounded science is a construct of man to help him avoid God and attempt to understand the universe absent of his direct work.

Huzzah
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 11:17 PM   #309
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And my point of view is that unfounded science is a construct of man to help him avoid God and attempt to understand the universe absent of his direct work.

Huzzah
*facepalm*

I normally don't call names but in this case, I'll make an exception. What kind of retarded logic do you use to come about your conclusion? How is Science unfounded? Where do you get your information? Are you accusing Science of systematically disseminating incorrect information in an effort to cover up God's (alleged) work? You honestly believe that is what is going on here!? Unbelievable.

You mindset is why intelligent debate is next to impossible in these discussions. One side uses a strict set of criteria to investigate something, the other side uses a default system that explains everything. There can never be a happy medium because one side wants to know why everything is, the other side does not want you to question how everything is.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 07:06 AM   #310
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*facepalm*

I normally don't call names but in this case, I'll make an exception. What kind of retarded logic do you use to come about your conclusion? How is Science unfounded?
Gregg and I were talking about origins and his faith in a theory that there is no evidence for. I understand why you would find my statement to be idiotic, but you didn't read our last posts. His faith is in a concept that is not proven as fact (matter's eternal naturel) and my faith is in a concept that is not proven as fact (God's eternal existence).
HTH

Nice quote I found today also


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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:17 AM   #311
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Just because you believe it doesn't make it any less fake or made up
Only time will prove my point.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:29 AM   #312
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If anybody has a closed mind I would say it is you. You refuse to see things from the Christian point of view.
Attachment 110047
Now that's golden.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:34 AM   #313
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Remember, that if matter can accidentally become more complex, and evolution can occur inside and against the law of thermodynamics, and while everything we observe breaks down, yet we fight against that and evolve... if you can be convinced to believe all of that, how is it a stretch that a God capable of making an entire universe is unable to make sure his word is accurately recorded?

You either believe that God is eternal and matter is not, or that matter is eternal and that God is dead. I find no evidence for the latter.
Matter does not accidently become more complex and evolution obeys all the laws of thermodynamics. Learn to science.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 08:37 AM   #314
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Only time will prove my point.
Abe just stop for a minute.

This is exactly why I think you are so closed minded.

Your post should not have read:
Quote:
Just because you don't believe, it does not make it any less true.
it should have said, just because you don't believe, it does not make it any less true for me....

OR

Just because you don't believe, it doesn't mean I will change my beliefs that it is true for me,

Instead you come in acting as if your belief is the ONLY way, IT IS NOT. It SIMPLY is not. You can NOT prove to anyone no matter what you say, claim, or do, that your belief is 100% correct.

What you can say, is that you are very strong in your convictions and that YOUR beliefs work for YOU.

Back to your last post.

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Only time will prove my point.
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe some day in heaven, you'll log onto jesuschristlakes4x4.com and you'll see that I just recently joined and you'll get to say hey, Kickstand, I didn't think you'd make it but your here!! I'm so glad you made it kickstand.

Or

Maybe, you'll make it and I won't.

Or

Maybe, we'll both just be dead and my ashes will be spread out all over the woods somewhere and you'll be buried 6 ft deep at the local church cemetary and nobody will ever know a damn thing.

You can't sit here and say that only one of those is possible. You may BELIEVE that only one is possible, you may THINK that only one is possible, you may even have FAITH in your beliefs that only one of those is possible. But you can not, in any possible way prove to anyone that only one of those ideals is possible.

So if you ever want the respect that Kerwin or LC4X have earned, you should have the discussion with an open mind and understand that my BELIEFS are just as strong as yours, but I BELIEVE in something else.

You would feel disrespected if I someone came in here and said god is fake, it doesn't exist, you're stupid for believing it, I'm going to show you the truth.

It's a two way street.

You have yours, I'm ok with that. I have mine, let me have it.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 09:02 AM   #315
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Matter does not accidently become more complex and evolution obeys all the laws of thermodynamics. Learn to science.
How is it that you missed everything I just said, lol

Evolution works against entropy, that's a given, and if you want to start a new discussion on it, I can blow the dust off that side of my memory and we can have at. The point was regarding faith, and where the safe bet should be placed. I still find it funny how atheists act like they hold they only solid basis of belief, while the whole time there is a large quantity of faith involved.


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Old September 3rd, 2013, 09:04 AM   #316
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I see you put plenty of thought into your post. You are right in saying that you have your idea in how things are and Nobody can take that from you, not even me.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 09:05 AM   #317
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How is it that you missed everything I just said, lol

Evolution works against entropy, that's a given, and if you want to start a new discussion on it, I can blow the dust off that side of my memory and we can have at. The point was regarding faith, and where the safe bet should be placed. I still find it funny how atheists act like they hold they only solid basis of belief, while the whole time there is a large quantity of faith involved.


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No sir, I can't prove my beliefs any more than you can prove yours. (I'm not that smart on the scientific side, and haven't done that much extensive research).

Please don't lump me in with all closedminded people.
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 12:31 PM   #318
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End conclusion is?
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 01:06 PM   #319
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End conclusion is?
You can't empirically prove god exists, but with sufficient technology you can demonstrate the mechanism of the universe. Whether you want to believe a supreme being directs this is up to the Individual
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Old September 3rd, 2013, 02:51 PM   #320
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End conclusion is?
That having faith does not make you a dummy. Atheists exercise faith daily. It was an article to make non-believing people more proud of their disbelief. It worked!!!
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