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Old June 19th, 2013, 02:35 PM   #41
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I understand not having the capacity to learn something. It's like me with directions. I CANNOT learn where the fukc I am. I can get lost in my own back yard. I am the reason GPS was invented and it's not for lack of trying. I grew up in Troy which is a perfect grid system for learning/driving and I still got lost all the time.

Also, which may be related to my horrible sense of direction, I can never tell what room in a house is above or below me.

But to the point of jobs. Jobs shift, they always have. Technology shifts jobs. What do you think the invention of electricity, the telephone, the internet, everything has done? Those poor door to door encyclopedia salesmen!
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Old June 19th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #42
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Get busy living or get busy dying... or another way to say it is evolve or die.

If an idiot like me can others can do as well.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 03:15 PM   #43
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Get busy living or get busy dying... or another way to say it is evolve or die.

If an idiot like me can while not having to worry about house payments or utilities others can do as well.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #44
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I worked during the day and went to school at night.

Have any more excuses? Walmart and fast food are always hiring.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #45
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We don’t, but do you think that massive unemployment will not affect you? Should we try to plan for the future or just let it steamroller over us like Mr Green wants?

As smart machines evolve and costs come down there would be very few jobs safe. Take self driving cars as an example. Sounds great, yes? So where will that lead? Trucks that can run 24/7 with no need for a driver? What about all the taxi drivers, chauffeurs, bus drivers, all the people currently paid to drive, what will they do? Sure some will stay on, like maybe UPS guys to carry the packages, but no doubt at lower pay levels since less skill is needed. That is just one area where smart machines will displace a lot of humans.
If YOU see YOUR job disappearing in the future that means that YOU better do something about it. YOU picked the wrong field to go into so it is nobody's fault but YOUR own. It is called having drive to succeed in life. If you don't have enough drive you will not succeed. I chose a career that I don't believe can go away. The welding part of my job may get taken over partially by orbital welders but I also take the time to learn about the design, service and sales part of the job. I did not pick my line of work because it was easy I picked it because it was a good life long career.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #46
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Hey Brods, my panties arent in a bunch, I just get frustrated when I have to deal with people who make excuses and blame others for their own misfortunes. If it were up to people with your attitude we would still be driving model A's. Just ask Metallica 'internet is gonna kill the music industry!' Ha! I will waste no more letters of the alphabet explaining this. Good day.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:19 PM   #47
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Hey Brods, my panties arent in a bunch, I just get frustrated when I have to deal with people who make excuses and blame others for their own misfortunes. If it were up to people with your attitude we would still be driving model A's. Just ask Metallica 'internet is gonna kill the music industry!' Ha! I will waste no more letters of the alphabet explaining this. Good day.
Wow. Where did I make excuses for anyone? Where did I say to fight automation? Pulling things out of thin air are you?
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #48
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Wow. Where did I make excuses for anyone? Where did I say to fight automation? Pulling things out of thin air are you?
You should re-read what you have wrote because that is how it came off to me also.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #49
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Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about the reality of what it takes to do those things, and where they can and cannot function, what they cost, how many jobs are created to realize that vision, etc.


Do you work on self driving cars? I am aware of at least one company that is, because I work there. Do you understand how many engineering jobs are created developing even the most basic limited systems for, say, automated highways. The jobs improving the highways, adding signage, sensors, improved maps, to allow smart cars to navigate. To produce and test the increase electronics and software required. You really think that an automated taxi service has any prayer of working in Manhattan?

There will always be jobs. Job sectors shift, people need to shift with them.

Companies exist to make money. GOOD companies work to create jobs that are good, so people want to work for thme, and they get good talent. It is a bit of a dance, but never lose sight of the fact that companies are for making money, whether its GM, or a lemonade stand.

I find it funny how many people are supposedly opposed to socialism, or welfare, but then want to artificially prop up and hand out jobs which are overly expensive and inefficient.

That way of thinking worked somewhat back in the days, even 20-30 years ago, but with globalization, the rise of education levels in other parts of the world, the reduction in shipping times and cost, and improvements in communication, etc, you CAN NOT survive if you are not competative with the global market.


You can really see a divide with people, and their opinions. You will see people who work with this every day, and understand innovation, and change, and work with it, and you see the people that refuse to change, and therefore resist, to try to hold on to their little job as long as possible.


If you look at the idea of putting robots as drivers, I see it as delivering a better product. They can do 99% percentile driving moves, without fear or risk of injury. And can do it repeatably. That delivers better results. Honestly, driving robots are not new. They have existing in some capability for quite a while. I worked in a thermal chassis dyno in my first job. I drove the car 6 hours a day to an exact speed. I did it in -40F temps, and I did it in 120f with so much sun lamps that the car roof was smoking once. They had robots that could do the same thing better than I could, but they were expensive. But as the price comes down, you can use a robot to do a more repeatable job, in a shitty environment that people don't want to work in.

Someone has to design those robots. Someone has to build them. Someone has to sell them. Someone has to support them to the users. Someone has to install them. Someone has to develop the programs that they will follow. Someone has to actually put that into the robot, and tune the program. Those are shifts in the labor.

That is how this country will survive, or will fail. Jobs will shift from less skill, to more skill. You trade the guy who's a human crash test dummy for more skilled jobs. Or you become a crappy city full of unemployed crash test dummies.


There are a lot of people who need to wake up to that fact. To realize other countries aren't stupid. They are catching up, or passing the US in manufacturing and engineering capabilities, while people here whine about it, and scream 'they took 'r jobs!'....
How do you get resisting change and supporting welfare and socialism out of a desire to discuss what displaced workers will do?? Ok, apparently I need to work on my writing skilz. The coming automation WILL happen and it will displace millions of workers. It is not about fighting it because, as you pointed out, companies will have to automate to be competitive. It is not about handing out welfare to the displaced workers (though that may happen). The question is what the displaced people will do and how should we prepare? As been said over and over not everyone is cut out for engineering or programming positions. As for expecting new industries to pop up and hire displaced workers as has happened in the past, this shift is predicted to occur at a much faster rate and much greater extent than ever before. New industries take time to develop, what happens to the displaced workers during that time? What if there are no new industries this time around? Either way this shift will seriously challenge our society. (see this thread for some links to articles for more detailed information
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You are correct I know nothing about self driving cars except what I’ve read. I do, however, work for a small manufacturer and have done everything involved with making a product from start to finish, so I have a slight idea (albeit on a small scale) of what it takes to make something.

While it takes a lot to develop a product, once the design phase is complete they can start cranking out vehicles one after another. And correct me if I’m wrong in assuming there will be no “robot” in cars, the automated driver will be part of the car, its parts will be installed on the assembly line just as they are now, so there will not be a huge shift in jobs from professional drivers to “robot installers”. That is when the reality of how many people will get displaced will become clear. I hope it is not in my lifetime, but my kids will have to deal with it for sure.

And yes I do see an automated taxi system eventually working in Manhattan. Especially after the government requires self driving vehicles as a “safety measure” to “protect” us.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:33 PM   #50
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A whole bunch of people are reading more into my statements than is there.


All I am saying, is that not everyone can 're-train' for a completely different type of work. A driver for the test track can transition to driving for UPS easier than he can transition to servicing the autonomous systems. Or is everyone saying that engineering level careers are a cakewalk? I doubt it, it takes hard work and a good understanding of mechanical or electrical principles to become an engineer. I poke fun at some, but I know enough about it to know it's not simple work. I'm still trying to find enough time to learn CAD well enough to make changes to our electrical prints. I can draw a print by hand in much less time than it takes for me to change it in CAD.

If 'education' is all that's necessary, then everyone in a given course should get the same grades, correct? Hardly.

A given career requires certain talents, if a person does not have the raw talent, no amount of training can make them proficient.

Oh- I do not promote the 'welfare' of keeping archaic jobs for the manual laborers, it just irritates me when someone takes the position of 'It's simple, re-train', or 'If I can do it, anyone can'. People are not all the same.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #51
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Sink or swim. That's life. Sometimes people have to swim harder than others.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:04 PM   #52
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Sink or swim. That's life. Sometimes people have to swim harder than others.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #53
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Sink or swim. That's life. Sometimes people have to swim harder than others.
to the nth!
and sometimes that swim is up-stream against a flood current.
life ain't fair and sometimes there are winners and sometimes there are loosers.
sh*t happens and some are not lucky enough to recover.
although that sucks it is karma.....
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:08 PM   #54
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'displaced workers' thats funny. We should do nothing about them. They need to find another job, its pretty simple. Just like when grocery stores started selling milk, the milk man got a different job. Just like when phones started dialing, the operator found a new job. Just like when the back hoe was invented, the ditch digger got a new job. Just like when the car was invented, the horse got a new job. The biggest problem with this discussion here is that I in no way believe that innovations like this robotic driver eliminates jobs. Will a certain person loose his job? Maybe, but not a big deal in the big picture. I lied, I wasted letters of the alphabet again....
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:28 PM   #55
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'displaced workers' thats funny. We should do nothing about them. They need to find another job, its pretty simple. Just like when grocery stores started selling milk, the milk man got a different job. Just like when phones started dialing, the operator found a new job. Just like when the back hoe was invented, the ditch digger got a new job. Just like when the car was invented, the horse got a new job. The biggest problem with this discussion here is that I in no way believe that innovations like this robotic driver eliminates jobs. Will a certain person loose his job? Maybe, but not a big deal in the big picture. I lied, I wasted letters of the alphabet again....
Yea, that fucker Edison put so many lamplighters out of a job.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 08:00 PM   #56
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Just like the line worker, the driver will get shit canned, sit at home and cry about how there are no jeeeerbs, some punk kid will play video games all through college and graduate with a degree in electrical engineering with a focus on electromechanical technologies, he'll replace said driver and join a team of 5 smart engineerings, half of them from india to design testing systems like this. Meanwhile the driver won't further educate himself and will remain obsolete and will complain as he can't find another job, loses his wife and his house, calls one of those late night trucking school infomercials, drives OTR for 6 months, gets fired because he doesn't have teh smarts to operate the new gps logging system the trucking company requires, moves into a trailer off 8 mile with eminems cousin and sits around complaining about how our country is being overtaken by immigrants and remembers the good ole days.
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Will someone please argue with me?
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Old June 19th, 2013, 09:09 PM   #57
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As long as no one develops artificial intelligence to the point where the computer can design everything from scratch, based on nothing more than the parameters of the required product, no one has to worry.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #58
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Bhut that's not faaaaiiiir! I want's to learns me some new skills but I don't want to put any effort or commitment into it. THEY should do sumthin about this, I'm entitled to a ghud jerb!
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Old June 20th, 2013, 06:28 AM   #59
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Bhut that's not faaaaiiiir! I want's to learns me some new skills but I don't want to put any effort or commitment into it. THEY should do sumthin about this, I'm entitled to a ghud jerb!
Still not talking about entitlement.

I'm talking about what happens to the people that their skill level is maxxed out in menial labor.


And since no one seems to be able to pick up on it, I'll tell you what I think will happen.


Welfare.


We will be paying to support the people who do not have the ability to work in a tech oriented world.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #60
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As long as no one develops artificial intelligence to the point where the computer can design everything from scratch, based on nothing more than the parameters of the required product, no one has to worry.
I cant wait for the day this is possible! IF I want a Jeep, I have my magic A.I. design and build me one. If I want a bigger bed, I have it do the same. I can sit in my awesome roboticly built house and eat cheetos all day and watch it build me cool stuff. No need to work now!
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