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Old November 8th, 2006, 05:48 PM   #161
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see my above statement about a mother smoking crack while pregnant. She is not brought up on charges. You can do all sorts of risky crap while pregnant that i dont agree with. I dont like abortions but i think its a catch22 situation where because of other things you really cant outlaw it.

Cant parents deny their kids medical attention on the grounds of religous freedom? I have heard this in the news and the parents being charged but i think the parents usually win in the end. Its either your kid or its not. I cant be held ultimately responsible for a kid with other folks making decisions if it should be carried to full term.

It gets pretty hairy when the state gets into peoples right or not right to procreate. Should downs syndrome or metally retarded folks be allowed to procreat even though they cant take care of themselves much less a baby. Think of the reprocussions. It can get really screwy in a hurry.
This is the best argument I have heard yet. Seriously. It states facts to support the position.

I would argue that in the cases you specified "smoking pregnant woman, neglecting children medical treatment...." that there should be legal consequences for those actions. Does the law currently contain and enforce those consequences.....not always. But there are clear human rights violations involved.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 05:51 PM   #162
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I already replied to that. ... " that fetus would not be able to live/breathe/function on its own that young. It's brain, nervous system, etc are not fully formed or functional( even tho it may have fingers and toes). So to me, it's not murder if its not a true living/human being"

the difference is, at the point of abortion, it's not able to function.
Ever hear of ventilators? My wife is a nurse and has several adult patients who can't live/breathe/function....on their own. Should it be legal for me to walk up to them and stab them in the heart. Maybe it'd be compasonate actually. I wonder if I'd get prosecuted if I did do that?
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Old November 8th, 2006, 06:27 PM   #163
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Not at all but if you're going to say something fucked up like that and claim it as fact you better post your source.
sorry foro upsetting you, and i cant give the source because its noto from a website
we watched the video oduring an abortion awareness seminar (sp?) a little while back. they used one of thosoe tiny cameraso to show the actualt footoage of it. I am ogoing too try and contact ther lady who put the seminar on to see if she knowso where the video came from
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Old November 8th, 2006, 06:46 PM   #164
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Ever hear of ventilators?
x2

Vents...they kinda come in handy sometimes. Does this baby deserve to be killed just because it's on a vent?

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Old November 8th, 2006, 06:49 PM   #165
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Abortion is a relatively new law which was not a part of any founding father's pholosophy. But as you noted , the people spoke and it became law. And if this man's vote carries any weight, it will be to BAN that awful law that murders innocent people.

I wish I could say the same to you about your position, I neither understand it or find it noble, and thats not from lack of trying (you schmuck! )
Is it a law or is it a ruling....basicly case law...roe v wade?
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Old November 8th, 2006, 09:45 PM   #166
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Is it a law or is it a ruling....basicly case law...roe v wade?

Yup case law, that the supreme court ruled based on its interpretation of the constitution. Which was wrote by the founding fathers. Go america
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Old November 8th, 2006, 09:50 PM   #167
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Yup case law, that the supreme court ruled based on its interpretation of the constitution. Which was wrote by the founding fathers. Go america
And all I have to say to that is there is 1 main reason I voted for Bush and that was the assignment of new members of the supreme court during this past term that may at some point get to re-evaluate the constitutional interpretation as it applies to abortion and the "right to liberty and freedom FOR ALL"

Mission accomplished so I am glad he is in office, regardless of all the other crap.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 11:37 PM   #168
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based on its interpretation of the constitution
Which can change with the wind...
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Old November 9th, 2006, 12:06 AM   #169
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Suppose there is a 100% chance the baby will survive if not aborted and a 100% chance the baby will die if aborted but a 30% chance the mother will survive if aborted. Why does the individual with a lower probability of survival get to kill the one that otherwise would have a 100% probability of survival?
That makes no sense. If the mother dies the babys chances of survival are slim and none, unless it's very late term. I don't think it's ever really a choice between baby or mother, it's more a choice between mother living and baby dieing, both living, or both dieing. I'd think that mother dieing and baby living would be an extreem rarity.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 12:10 AM   #170
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And all I have to say to that is there is 1 main reason I voted for Bush and that was the assignment of new members of the supreme court during this past term that may at some point get to re-evaluate the constitutional interpretation as it applies to abortion and the "right to liberty and freedom FOR ALL"

Mission accomplished so I am glad he is in office, regardless of all the other crap.
And why I will likely vote for a dem. in 08
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Old November 9th, 2006, 12:57 AM   #171
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Even with rape or incest and how wrong it might be, killing is killing and last time I checked killing was wrong.
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I'm 75/25 pro life. I think abortion of incest and rape should be the only time allowed.
Huh...
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Old November 9th, 2006, 09:01 AM   #172
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And why I will likely vote for a dem. in 08
Are there seats expected to vacate between 2008-2012? It's all timing.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 10:54 AM   #173
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Huh...
Yes, I did some soul serching and am 100% Pro-Life because my arguments for abortion duing a rape does not correct a wrong and is still killing.

Funny how that post was from say 3 months ago so I'm glad you have nothing better to do then dig to find some dirt on me which is what you expected that to be . . . don't you have kids that could use some kind of teaching?

Killing is wrong no matter if it is in the form of an abortion or by leathal injection and should be left to GOD to take you on his terms.

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Old November 9th, 2006, 02:09 PM   #174
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Yes, I did some soul serching and am 100% Pro-Life
Right awn!

When it comes to voting, its all on, or all off, no gray area. It's a black and white issue when it comes to voting, because you can only darken one circle.

If you are not for abortion, you are aginst it. If you are not against it, you are for it. The only choice is to be 100% for or 100% against.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 02:53 PM   #175
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Agreed, which is why I have asked several times for someone to provide a differentiation between murder and abortion.
And many have repeatedly said that LIFE is NOT life unless it could live on it's own... it's just a jumble of cells. But as pro-life you cannot accept that because the potential of life is good enough for you. EVERY fetus is just a simple mutation from aborting itself on it's own. A female may have hundreds of miscarraiges in a lifetime, especially if shes on birth control as a fertilized egg is not allowed to implant, this in and of itself could be called a form of abortion. So how many of your wives or g/f's use birth control?

The definition of life is what it all comes down to period. You cannot murder something that is not living. Frankenbrew put it very nicely when he said until it can live on it's own it is essentially a tumor, though I would consider it more of a parasite by definition, until it could live on it's own.

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Old November 9th, 2006, 03:12 PM   #176
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And many have repeatedly said that LIFE is NOT life unless it could live on it's own... it's just a jumble of cells. But as pro-life you cannot accept that because the potential of life is good enough for you. EVERY fetus is just a simple mutation from aborting itself on it's own. A female may have hundreds of miscarraiges in a lifetime, especially if shes on birth control as a fertilized egg is not allowed to implant, this in and of itself could be called a form of abortion. So how many of your wives or g/f's use birth control?

You [I]cannot[I] murder something that is not living. Frankenbrew put it very nicely when he said until it can live on it's own it is essentially a tumor, though I would consider it more of a parasite by definition, until it could live on it's own.
I think this statement is completely correct "The definition of life is what it all comes down to period." which is to say, abortion is abortion regardless of the conditions (health of mother, rape, incest) which is either OK if you think the baby is not alive or completely wrong if you think the baby is alive.

I understand your point of view. I also understand that MuddyPaw's kid was born (and alive coincidentally) at an age where abortion can and does occur.

So the question everyone should really ask themselves is "do I think an unborn baby is alive and human" or do you consider an unborn baby "essentially a tumor, though I would consider it more of a parasite by definition". The condition of the mother or the events that lead up to the pregnancy are irrelevant.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 03:18 PM   #177
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I think this statement is completely correct "The definition of life is what it all comes down to period." which is to say, abortion is abortion regardless of the conditions (health of mother, rape, incest) which is either OK if you think the baby is not alive or completely wrong if you think the baby is alive.

I understand your point of view. I also understand that MuddyPaw's kid was born (and alive coincidentally) at an age where abortion can and does occur.

So the question everyone should really ask themselves is "do I think an unborn baby is alive" or do you consider an unborn baby "essentially a tumor, though I would consider it more of a parasite by definition". The condition of the mother or the events that lead up to the pregnancy are irrelevant.
But you also have been going at this like many of us consider a late term abortion (such as the age of muddypaws boy) right.

Early term like I have talked the most about I could really give a flying flip, but if it gets so far as late term where the baby has a chance to live on its own (which in a rape case wouldnt be likely, possible with incest, but not likely either) I would not really go for it.

While there is not a lot of backing to it, if they told me my wife would die, the baby would die, or both would die... I would rather lose the kid then risk my wife's life, animals lose young all the time, we are nothing but another animal in nature, more advanced but an animal none-the-less. It would be soley my wife's decision as I would not ask her to die so that my offspring could live. That is her risk to take if she wishes. That's really the only place a late term would even be considered in IMO.

No matter how you put it, it's NOT as cut and dry as you want it to be, as it is a matter of circumstance as much as it is of definition

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Old November 9th, 2006, 03:32 PM   #178
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And many have repeatedly said that LIFE is NOT life unless it could live on it's own... it's just a jumble of cells. But as pro-life you cannot accept that because the potential of life is good enough for you. EVERY fetus is just a simple mutation from aborting itself on it's own. A female may have hundreds of miscarraiges in a lifetime, especially if shes on birth control as a fertilized egg is not allowed to implant, this in and of itself could be called a form of abortion. So how many of your wives or g/f's use birth control?

The definition of life is what it all comes down to period. You [I]cannot[I] murder something that is not living. Frankenbrew put it very nicely when he said until it can live on it's own it is essentially a tumor, though I would consider it more of a parasite by definition, until it could live on it's own.
Dude, have you ever had a baby? They can't live on their own even after birth, they are 100% dependant, so your argument about self-sufficiency is void, holds no water.

By the time a woman can even KNOW she is pregnant, she is already 4-5 weeks pregnant. Doctors work off of a 40 week term because of how the mestral cycle works. But that is not the point, the point is that by the time a woman knows she is pregnant (a few days after she knows she missed her period), this child is already 4-5 WEEKS develped, it'snot just a lump of cells. Just a week or two later, it is already in normal human shape, with a central nervious system, limbs, heartbeat, internal organs; it has its own blood type, its own unique DNA, it has muscles and it moves about the womb. You got this vision in your head of a lump of cells under a miscroscopte, that is NOT reality!!

See some detailed devellopmental stuff here: http://abort73.com/HTML/I-A-2-prenatal.html
By the way, if you are truely brave, take a look at some of the photos in a different part of that website for a real reality check on abortion, i'm talking serious reality check.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 04:05 PM   #179
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While there is not a lot of backing to it, if they told me my wife would die, the baby would die, or both would die... I would rather lose the kid then risk my wife's life, animals lose young all the time, we are nothing but another animal in nature, more advanced but an animal none-the-less. It would be soley my wife's decision as I would not ask her to die so that my offspring could live. That is her risk to take if she wishes. That's really the only place a late term would even be considered in IMO.
My only thought is that you could never be 100% sure that either, both or neither would die so you're decision would be based on a risk profile. In the case of artistic gore's wife, the information would have been inaccurate and the baby would have died unnecessarily. Until we have fully functioning crystal balls, I find it hard to support this condition - especially in, but not limited to late term abortion.

As much as the use of abortion to save a life or because of rape has come up in this thread, you would think that abortion only occurs for those reasons. I just did a quick google for statistics and found the following:

Reasons for Abortion (U.S. - 2004)

% stating reason contributed to decision to have abortion 2004
(N=1,160)

Having a baby would tically change my life 74%
Can’t afford a baby now 73%
Don’t want to be a single mother or having relationship problems 48%
Have completed my childbearing 38%
Not ready for a(nother) child† 32%
Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant 25%
Don’t feel mature enough to raise a(nother) child 22%
Husband or partner wants me to have an abortion 14%
Possible problems affecting the health of the fetus 13%
Physical problem with my health 12%
Parents want me to have an abortion 6%
Was a victim of rape 1%
Became pregnant as a result of incest <0.5%


Source: Finer LB, Frohwirth LF, Dauphinee LA, Singh S, Moore AM. Reasons U.S. women have abortions: quantitative and qualitative perspectives. Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2005 Sep;37(3):110-8.

Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S. - 1998)

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%

Source:Bankole, Akinrinola; Singh, Susheela; Haas, Taylor. Reasons Why Women Have Induced Abortions: Evidence from 27 Countries. International Family Planning Perspectives, 1998, 24(3):117–127 & 152 As reported by:The Alan Guttmacher Institute Online:


And from an independent source:

Why do women have abortions? - 1988

Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
- Feels unready for responsibility 21%
- Feels she can't afford baby 21%
- Concern for how baby would change her life 16%
- Relationship problem 12%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 11%
- Has all the children she wants 8%
- Other reasons 4-5%
TOTAL: 93%

"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)
- Mother's Health 3%
- Baby may have health problem 3%
- Rape or Incest 1%
TOTAL: 7%

Source: Aida Torres and J.D. Forrest, "Why Do Women Have Abortions?"
Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 20 No. 4 (July/August 1988) p. 170.
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Old November 9th, 2006, 06:19 PM   #180
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I don't like abortions, mostly because stupid people that don't use birth control use them instead of being smart in the first place.

Would I ever abort my child? Hell no, even if for some stupid extreme circumstance could not provide for him/her, there are plenty of fit parents that could.

Am I going to tell someone else what to do? As long as it's not inhumane, then no. I don't know where that line is, and my morals and religion would play a large part in setting that bar.

Cliff notes? I am able to decide for others if abortion is wrong or not. I guess that makes me reluctantly pro-choice. So no I am not 100% pro choice...

And I am REALLY sick of religious nut jobs flipping out about abortion and taking pictures of rotting dog carcases and still births and saying they are aborted babies. Go die.
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