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Old November 7th, 2006, 08:17 PM   #141
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I already replied to that. ... " that fetus would not be able to live/breathe/function on its own that young. It's brain, nervous system, etc are not fully formed or functional( even tho it may have fingers and toes). So to me, it's not murder if its not a true living/human being"

the difference is, at the point of abortion, it's not able to function. no full nervous system, not an operational brain, no breath, not a fully celled organism, not truly alive.

I'm done :)
why do they have records of the child screaming while they are sawing its limbs off and sucking them up with a vaccuum??
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Old November 7th, 2006, 09:51 PM   #142
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My 2 cents.

I used to be 75% pro-choice.

Now I am split 50/50, mostly because of the statement that an innocent child should not have to suffer for the actions of a guilty man.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 10:06 PM   #143
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I already replied to that. ... " that fetus would not be able to live/breathe/function on its own that young. It's brain, nervous system, etc are not fully formed or functional( even tho it may have fingers and toes). So to me, it's not murder if its not a true living/human being"

the difference is, at the point of abortion, it's not able to function. no full nervous system, not an operational brain, no breath, not a fully celled organism, not truly alive.

I'm done :)
Barb, first I appreciate the detail you put into your reply, thanks for helping me understand your view. But I need to correct your statements quoted here, because you do not know much about fetal development. How do you suppose a heart beats on its own? It's because of a functioning central nervous system, brain stem, etc. The heart is a muscle, which responds to impulses set by the brain. So what makes you believe that an early term baby is an incomplete celled organism? It is very much alive. And as Miffy said, when you feel that little critter wigglin inside ya, your perspective greatly changes. I felt my daughter move at a much earlier time than most babies are felt, it was less than three months and I could feel it from the outside, it was pretty amazing. Just because the baby is unable to survive for a few more weeks does not make it less than a person. At this stage in the game, a baby can live outside the womb at pretty much HALF term. And as AMC noted, babies who are born are still unable to survive without total dependance on a caregiver.

I tell ya what, becoming a Father has really changed my perspective on abortion, and has made me despise it even more. So I ask for your and everyone else's forgiveness if I am coming across too strongly. I truely hate abortion, but I hope to not have lost your interest in discussion (This is all my reflection at the end of the day when I am more at ease, haha.)

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Old November 7th, 2006, 10:09 PM   #144
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Now I am split 50/50, mostly because of the statement that an innocent child should not have to suffer for the actions of a guilty man.
So I am not going out of my mind then?

It just does not make sense to me. What would be just and fair would be to kill the rapist, not to impute his penalty on the innocent child. And God love that baby who is made in that circumstance... I met a woman before who was conceived by violent rape. She struggled with her identity as a teen when she found out, but in the end she knew that the family who adopted her loved her dearly, and she cherished that. She now travels around the country talking about rape and abortion and self image, a very dynamic woman.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 10:09 PM   #145
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why do they have records of the child screaming while they are sawing its limbs off and sucking them up with a vaccuum??
Prove it. If you're going to say something like that you better fucking have something to back yourself up with.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 10:11 PM   #146
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Prove it. If you're going to say something like that you better fucking have something to back yourself up with.
Does that make you have a consence when you hear that a little flesh sack (as dave likes to call it) actually is screaming in pain??
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Old November 7th, 2006, 10:14 PM   #147
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Does that make you have a consence when you hear that a little flesh sack (as dave likes to call it) actually is screaming in pain??
Not at all but if you're going to say something fucked up like that and claim it as fact you better post your source.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 10:36 PM   #148
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Not at all but if you're going to say something fucked up like that and claim it as fact you better post your source.
Well, i'll tell ya what...the baby shown below could have been aborted in Michigan and it came out crying and peeing....yea, about a pound and a half.


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Old November 7th, 2006, 11:37 PM   #149
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Dems win the house back, that will put the brakes on the pro-life movement in washington.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 12:04 AM   #150
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I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."( Patrick Henry, March 23,1775 )

That is the demeaner our founding fathers had, that drove them to start this great nation. And it is still alive in me for one.

I am pro-choice on the ideals of freedom. I don't like abortion, and can not argue in favor of it. My point of view is that it is not cut and dry. So the government should keep its nose out. Each and every case should be decided on by the women, her doctor, and friends & family.

The same people also wrote this:

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Which to me means that everyone gets the same rights to live at thier creation... i.e. conception.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 12:10 AM   #151
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Why don't we just cut every guys nuts off that makes one of these women preg?
If you talking about rapists I agree. No more repeat offenders. While their at it they should confiscate all their possessions, sell them off, and use the money to take care of their victims and any babies that may come of their action. Leave them broke and dickless.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 12:17 AM   #152
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Last I checked we have a system in place to provide medical care for pregnant women without insurance.

http://www.justmommies.com/articles/...nsurance.shtml

in Michigan it's called Healthy kids / Medicaid

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/He...ds_10324_7.pdf
I know the programs exist. I, unfortunatly, had to make use of them 15 years ago when my son was born.

My question was more about how much people agree with them. All to often I hear the same people how want to outlaw abortion complaining about their tax money going to support "welfare babies". It would seem to me that if you think it's our moral obligation to prevent unborn babies from getting killed that we should also see it as our moral obligation that all children get properly cared for regardless of when we thik of thier parents or how they got into the situation their in.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 01:11 AM   #153
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The same people also wrote this:



Which to me means that everyone gets the same rights to live at thier creation... i.e. conception.

In that qoute creator refers to a higher power (god). In my interpertation, I don't see how it defines when life starts.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 10:51 AM   #154
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Shaker, you're such a schmuck! Your founding fathers argument has no merit, they did not comment on abortion because it was not in paractice. The founders were men who were very deep into matters of faith (I am not making the claim that all were Christians, but they all talked about matters of faith in God), they put their trust and hope in God. As such, I would say it is more likely that they woudl adhere to the biblical account of life. I will nto say for sure what they thought, but I will say that I imagine it MORE likely than not that they followed biblical principles on life (that God knits the child together in the womb, that he knows the number of hairs on its head, etc).

This argument is neither here nor there, so lets move on.




Does it matter to anyone the level of development in the child at the time of abortion?

Does it matter to anyone what is done to the baby during an abortion?

Does it matter to anyoen the health risks to the mother from an abortion?
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Old November 8th, 2006, 11:56 AM   #155
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Well, i'll tell ya what...the baby shown below could have been aborted in Michigan and it came out crying and peeing....yea, about a pound and a half.

I see you're trying to impart the power of teh moustache to your son in this picture.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 01:09 PM   #156
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Shaker, you're such a schmuck! Your founding fathers argument has no merit, they did not comment on abortion because it was not in paractice. The founders were men who were very deep into matters of faith (I am not making the claim that all were Christians, but they all talked about matters of faith in God), they put their trust and hope in God. As such, I would say it is more likely that they woudl adhere to the biblical account of life. I will nto say for sure what they thought, but I will say that I imagine it MORE likely than not that they followed biblical principles on life (that God knits the child together in the womb, that he knows the number of hairs on its head, etc).

This argument is neither here nor there, so lets move on.




Does it matter to anyone the level of development in the child at the time of abortion?

Does it matter to anyone what is done to the baby during an abortion?

Does it matter to anyoen the health risks to the mother from an abortion?

I'm a schmuck . I am talking about the fundementals of a government of, for, and by the people. That means to me that the people have the power, not the government.

You want to argue about how terrible abortion is. I agree with you that abortions are bad, but there is bad situations that I can understand some women choosing it. You are obviously to small minded to see past your own opinion.

Founding fathers, many were religious true, however they did see the importants of seperation of church and state, and abortion is a prime example for that.

As I stated I understand your position, and I believe it is nobel. But your position is unamerican, which makes you the schmuck.:miff:
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Old November 8th, 2006, 02:39 PM   #157
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Founding fathers, many were religious true, however they did see the importants of seperation of church and state, and abortion is a prime example for that.

As I stated I understand your position, and I believe it is nobel. But your position is unamerican
Abortion is a relatively new law which was not a part of any founding father's pholosophy. But as you noted , the people spoke and it became law. And if this man's vote carries any weight, it will be to BAN that awful law that murders innocent people.

I wish I could say the same to you about your position, I neither understand it or find it noble, and thats not from lack of trying (you schmuck! )
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Old November 8th, 2006, 04:33 PM   #158
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Alright.. I'll give you that...but where's your response to the rest of my post?

Here goes. Sorry, I was home with a sick kid today so I haven't been on the computer.

"For the religious ones in here.. remember one thing... You are not the one who will lay judgement down so get off the high horse and relax."

Already addressed. Abortion arguments cross religious and party lines

"Deep breath. Chill. Calm down."

I've been calm. I am just waiting for an argument that separates Abortion from murder.

"In order to actually debate an issue effectively you have to look at the situation from both sides. I'm not jumping into this post to try and convince anyone of anything but just hear me out. "

Agreed, which is why I have asked several times for someone to provide a differentiation between murder and abortion.

"I am one of the people that supports abortion in the extreme circumstances. I think people who get an abortion as a form of birth control are pathetic, sorry excuses for a human being. When it comes to an extreme circumstance I mean the rape of an innocent woman and the birthing of the child putting her in serious jeopardy of life threatening consequences. Now calm down guys. I know you're getting riled up AMC but just relax. Think about the other perspective for a minute.

What would you do if some guy murdered your wife? You'd rip that fucker in half and shit on his kidneys. Of course you would.... we all would."

If some guy murdered my wife and I ripped that fucker in half, so on......I would be in jail for murder. So again, please separate murder from abortion.

"What if your wife is raped and when it comes time to give birth there are extremely serious complications that put her at high risk of dying and the only way to save her life is to abort."

First, as exampled by artistic gore's testimony, you can get information from a doctor that you life is at jeapardy if you continue with the pregnancy and it is not always accurate information. Without a crystal ball, how do you really know the only way to save her life is to abort. Suppose there is a 100% chance the baby will survive if not aborted and a 100% chance the baby will die if aborted but a 30% chance the mother will survive if aborted. Why does the individual with a lower probability of survival get to kill the one that otherwise would have a 100% probability of survival?

"Will you really aid that rapist in killing your wife? Will you let that piece of shit kill her?

Don't say you would. No man would."

First, the rapist's business was done the minute he pulled out. Let's make this clear: an innocent unborn child is NOT the rapist. It is very unfortunate that the mother was raped. Don't get me wrong. But IF (remember it is not certain she will) she dies, it is due to passive events at the moment, Could those events have been prevented if the rape didn't occur? Of coarse. They also could have been prevented if she had flown to Africa the night before the rape and avoided it all together. That's not to place the blame of the potential death of the woman on the mother, just to say that many events and decisions lead to the outcome, none of which are the unborn babies actions. If she kills the baby, the death is the result of a conscience active agression. One more component to this scenerio that you forgot to bring up. What if the mother dies from complications related to the abortion, but would have survived without the surgery. I haven't looked up the figures, but I would bet a high wager that at least one death has resulted from abortion. It's a surgical procedure after all, and all surgical procedures have some associated risk.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 04:39 PM   #159
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Fundamentals set forth by the founding fathers.

I am a father of two. A son and a daughter. I am very proud of them and glad that they get to live in a free country, and I want to leave it that way for them.

Yes you should bow out commy.
Again, we do not live in a society of anarchy. It is not communist to suggest that there should be some restrictions and/or penalties for violating restrictions within a society. Murder happens to be one of them.
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Old November 8th, 2006, 04:44 PM   #160
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Holy Long Answer Batman! but here goes...

They are based on the fact that I live in America and I am given the freedom of choice with my body.
Agreed. But the unborn baby has 50% your DNA and 50% the father's DNA. It moves independently of you. She has 10 fingers of it's own and 10 toes of her own. Occasionally she may even kick your belly........all on her own. I don't disagree that you shouldn't have the choice to do whatever you want with your body. Likewise, I have the freedom to do whatever I want with my body. However, my freedom to punch someone ends when I violate the freedom of the person being hit. So you do what you want with your body so long as it doesn't violate the freedom of any other individual....including this new human life.
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