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Old November 7th, 2006, 05:24 PM   #121
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i certainly dont think incest or rape victims should have to live 9 months with some little devil spawn in their stomach. Just the idea of that happening to people i dont know makes me sick, to a loved one i couldnt bear it, much less my sister, wife/girlfriend, cousin or any one i care about. It would drive me crazy.

I rationalize it this way. You are allowed to do what ever you want to your own body. Extreme sports, dangerous un protected casual sex, IV drugs, eat your self to your immobile. Our society says as an individual you have the right to do any of these. A baby stuffed inside you that you didnt want has to be one of the worst things in the world it would be like being tortured 24/7 for 9 months straight. You can elect to have cancers cut our or deem them gods will. I would see a baby that is the product of rape as a cancer inside me if i was a woman. I would want it out and to do what ever it took to make me never think of it again. Untill the baby can live outside of the mothers body it is part of the mothers body. We cant stop crack addicts from smoking crack while pregnant, why should we stop a free honest minding her own business woman who was the victim of rape from riding her body of something. I think the real crux is the baby WILL be a person or could be ... but i cant live on its own. I dont see how it has rights it cant even pump its own blood or breath on its own. I just dont see any human rights transfering to a baby untill it comes to full term and is born.

I am 100 % against late term abortions. Thats just savage and only technically not murder as you could prolly perform a c section and the kid could live just fine.

I am whishing in a perfect world there was no need for abortions, be it lifestyle choice, health, whatever they happen.

Heres a question to ponder? What should be done with mothers that abuse their body and cant bring a kid to full term! are they murders? what if they abuse alcohol or drugs ? If abortion is murder there is millions of kids screwed up by terrible moms who never went for prenatal care once and the moms need to be brought up on attempted murder charges if you think abortion is murder. Either its the moms right or its not.

I am begrudingly pro choice.

Last edited by jamiesann; November 7th, 2006 at 05:26 PM.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 05:26 PM   #122
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Ok.. so you believe that the founding fathers implied that abortion is a freedom? Woudl you care to back that up?

Sorry to hear that you can't get any, bummer dude. And hopefully if you become a Daddy one day, you may wise up.

I realize that you are only clownin', but there is a point where you should bow out if you have no bullets, you're only making yourself look like ... nevermind.

Fundamentals set forth by the founding fathers.

I am a father of two. A son and a daughter. I am very proud of them and glad that they get to live in a free country, and I want to leave it that way for them.

Yes you should bow out commy.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 05:32 PM   #123
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i think the parallel comparison would be if your nagging wife was a parapalegic vegetable.. what do you think would be better for her? to kill her by removing life support or let her live on suffering?..
No, what you are neglecting to realize is that the baby has no flaws! It's not disabled, not a vegetable, not suffering, instead it is abudding life that shoudl have a right to live.

My comparison is more situationally accurate, yours is compeltely off, does not apply unless you are debating about a deformed baby. Try again.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 05:37 PM   #124
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If not.. how is abortion different? What qualifies abortion as less than murder?
Because I view it differently than you. Hence why there's a great debate. No matter what you say, I think women should have a choice about aborting an unwanted fetus than having the gov't say i have to have it.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 05:52 PM   #125
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i certainly dont think incest or rape victims should have to live 9 months with some little devil spawn in their stomach. Just the idea of that happening to people i dont know makes me sick, to a loved one i couldnt bear it, much less my sister, wife/girlfriend, cousin or any one i care about. It would drive me crazy.

I rationalize it this way. You are allowed to do what ever you want to your own body. Extreme sports, dangerous un protected casual sex, IV drugs, eat your self to your immobile. Our society says as an individual you have the right to do any of these. A baby stuffed inside you that you didnt want has to be one of the worst things in the world it would be like being tortured 24/7 for 9 months straight. You can elect to have cancers cut our or deem them gods will. I would see a baby that is the product of rape as a cancer inside me if i was a woman. I would want it out and to do what ever it took to make me never think of it again. Untill the baby can live outside of the mothers body it is part of the mothers body. We cant stop crack addicts from smoking crack while pregnant, why should we stop a free honest minding her own business woman who was the victim of rape from riding her body of something. I think the real crux is the baby WILL be a person or could be ... but i cant live on its own. I dont see how it has rights it cant even pump its own blood or breath on its own. I just dont see any human rights transfering to a baby untill it comes to full term and is born.

I am 100 % against late term abortions. Thats just savage and only technically not murder as you could prolly perform a c section and the kid could live just fine.

I am whishing in a perfect world there was no need for abortions, be it lifestyle choice, health, whatever they happen.

Heres a question to ponder? What should be done with mothers that abuse their body and cant bring a kid to full term! are they murders? what if they abuse alcohol or drugs ? If abortion is murder there is millions of kids screwed up by terrible moms who never went for prenatal care once and the moms need to be brought up on attempted murder charges if you think abortion is murder. Either its the moms right or its not.

I am begrudingly pro choice.
Jamie, thanks for being honest and intelligent. While I disagree with some of your choices, I definitely respect your decision process. You've risen above the rest!

If a mother abuses her body and kills her child, she shoudl be convicted teeh same way that her boyfriend would if he hit her with a bat, or forced her to drink poison, etc.

You do realize that abortions from rape are very rare, don't you? Consider for a moment the life of the baby OUTSIDE of its circumstances of conception. It did nothing wrong, and I see no reason to murder the baby. While it woudl be very emotionally trying on the mother, she shoudl at least consider adopting the child, thereby relieving herself of allpossible wrong doing. If she was the victim of cimrcumstance, then why make the baby a victim too? A second tragedy does not make the first go away, a second wrong does not make it right.

I asked my wife about this today since I mentioned her, and she confirmed that she woudl keep the child out of principle, and it woudl be hard as hell, but she sees no need to impute the rapists pentalty on an innocent child. And as long as I am around, if any blood be shed, let it be the rapist, not the innocent baby.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 05:56 PM   #126
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Because I view it differently than you. Hence why there's a great debate. No matter what you say, I think women should have a choice about aborting an unwanted fetus than having the gov't say i have to have it.
I already knew we differ, but you see abortion as less of a murder than a man killing his wife, so why is that?

Are your views based on any particular principles, or are they based on nothing?

Nobody accidentaly supports something, everyone has a reason, what is yours? (if you don't mind disclosing)
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Old November 7th, 2006, 06:08 PM   #127
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Jamie, thanks for being honest and intelligent. While I disagree with some of your choices, I definitely respect your decision process. You've risen above the rest!

If a mother abuses her body and kills her child, she shoudl be convicted teeh same way that her boyfriend would if he hit her with a bat, or forced her to drink poison, etc.

You do realize that abortions from rape are very rare, don't you? Consider for a moment the life of the baby OUTSIDE of its circumstances of conception. It did nothing wrong, and I see no reason to murder the baby. While it woudl be very emotionally trying on the mother, she shoudl at least consider adopting the child, thereby relieving herself of allpossible wrong doing. If she was the victim of cimrcumstance, then why make the baby a victim too? A second tragedy does not make the first go away, a second wrong does not make it right.

I asked my wife about this today since I mentioned her, and she confirmed that she woudl keep the child out of principle, and it woudl be hard as hell, but she sees no need to impute the rapists pentalty on an innocent child. And as long as I am around, if any blood be shed, let it be the rapist, not the innocent baby.
yeah i knew rape an incest victims werent the majority. Lots are just terrible sluts who use abortions as a last resort birth control. Unfortunately we can legislate good decision making skills, reponsibility, or foresight. I think abortion is arguably the most techincally fine detail that people differ just a lil bit and it sways them to one side or the other. I think almost everyone thinks its bad and wishes it was unneccesary.

heres some more blatant honesty from me as to why i am begrudingly pro choice. I dont want to pay for other peoples mistakes, and i dont want their mistakes to grow up and produce more unwanted kids who were raised with out a loving fmaily. I dont want to be stabed by some crack baby for drug money, or pay hundreds thousands of dollars for a brain dead drug baby to get out of the hospital to live in a home his entire life.

Life is precious but so is a half decent family. I am not so sure i would be greatful as a kid saved from abortion by law, to be abused in the state system by a wicked foster family, picked on by guards, bullied by jerks at a group home, and never REALLY loved by anyone. Never told i was smart, good, or really really cared for. That some twisted really fucked up way to live.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 06:18 PM   #128
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A man's wife can survive just fine without him, a early term baby can't survive without the mother. I don't feel it is murder until the baby could survive outside the womb.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 06:40 PM   #129
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Holy Long Answer Batman! but here goes...

They are based on the fact that I live in America and I am given the freedom of choice with my body. That right is very important to me. If i lived in china and i was forced abortion, you can bet i would fight against it, so i can make my own choices whether or not i can raise a child and provide with the proper love, care, and attention it so rightly deserves.

I can sympathize with a woman feeling terrified at becoming pregnant, especially someone who is young. Franky, it's terrifying thought. And because you don't know me, I must stress that I love children, am a caring individual and want the absolute best for my loved ones.
And frankly, if i were to become pregnant now (recently turned 21) I would probably freak out. Why? Because I'm a poor college student who's trying to better herself in order to provide for her future family.
And if I were to become pregnant, there's no way I would be able to give my defination of a proper upbringing to the child. Because I would be on my own. Drop out of college? most likely. Get a job -where? have a Home? probably not. I would not want my child to know that sort of hunger/pain etc. And I want to give my child every oppertunity I can. And in a selfish sense, I wouldn't want that for me. I wouldn't want that stress and wouldn't want to feel that type of burden. That and wouldn't want to put it on the child.

And the above doesn't mean i would have an abortion. it's just my views. I think it'd be one of the hardest decisions anyone would have to face. Just because someone is Pro-choice, does not mean they are Pro-death. Every situation is different, what is best for you may not be best for me, vice versa.

You may say it's not fair to that potential baby, well what about to be raised by someone who doesn't love, who hits, who does drugs, etc. Is that fair? Thousands of children die every die from starvation, AIDs, disease, etc. They live in pain each day. some babies lay on the ground while their mothers go work in the fields, many waiting death and crying from hunger. Do you say those mothers are murderers for going to work so they can feed their other children? So they can simply live/survive? How can you judge? Do you give your own money, time, etc to those countries? to this country? if you don't help them, then by your logic, you help them commit 'murder'. I say, no. this is too crazy of a world- life is unfair. we do the best we can in our own way.

and to be honest, i don't deem it as murder in those early stages. Yes i saw those pictures you posted, but that fetus would not be able to live/breathe/function on its own that young. It's brain, nervous system, etc are not fully formed or functional( even tho it may have fingers and toes). So to me, it's not murder if its not a true living/human being. And don't compare this to your wife, your granny who's on a breathing machine, etc. that's apples to oranges. Before life begins and after being born/living is totally different.

AHh this is a novel and i know i'll never satisfy you or even myself with this answer. Sometimes we have to listen to our gut. And that's all i'm doing
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:03 PM   #130
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A fetus is little more than the white susbstance that I leave on the shower wall.
OK, maybe you are jesting here. I really need to find my daughters 3mo. ultrasound. Very much more than white substance.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:07 PM   #131
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For the religious ones in here..
See my first observation. Abortion opinions are independent of religion and political parties. If you look back at this thread there are

1) Christian's who disagree with abortion
2) Christian's who agree with abortion
3) Atheists who disagree with abortion
4) Atheists who agree with abortion
5) Republicans who disagree with abortion
6) Republicans who agree with abortion
7) Democrats who disagree with abortion
8) Democrats who agree with abortion

You're statement is just a tactic to bin those who disagree with abortion to make it easier to slant the arguments.

And now one more opinion to add to the list:

Jamiesann thinks unborn innocent babies can be devil spawn: "i certainly dont think incest or rape victims should have to live 9 months with some little devil spawn "
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:08 PM   #132
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If it's not your place to judge, then I sure hope you did not vote this morning, because that is judging! Oh wait, you did vote, that means you told someone whether they should or should not kill doves. How could you!!?? I can't beleive you judge pople like that Miffy!

I will tell women not to abort the same way I will tell women not to kill their unruly husbands! WOMEN.. DON'T MURDER ANYONE AT ALL!!!

Sure, I would not be opposed to a castration, some men really deserve it, bring it on. Men MUST be responsible too!

Miffy, when you know in your heart and mind that somethign is WRONG, why would that not be followed with your vote? How can you vote against your conscience?

If I could I would take each and every one of those children and raise them myself. But the bottom line is that Yes they are killing a Life, I do not agree with it and they should have not had sex in the first place if they were not able to deal with the outcome of what they were doing. So then what we have a bunch of unwanted children born that are deprived or worse abused because they are unwanted? I Think the Best Answer is to Teach Everyone more about Sex Education. and if you belive in a god I think that is just what he is doing with Aids etc. Is Slapping us all in the head. To be honest I have never voted on this Because of what I said it is not for me to judge that day will come when there turn come in front of God himself.


(and a side note: I voted Yes on all the proposals :tonka: )
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:11 PM   #133
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A man's wife can survive just fine without him, a early term baby can't survive without the mother. I don't feel it is murder until the baby could survive outside the womb.

have you ever carried a child ? felt it move inside you? Life beings when the sperm hits the egg. If you end it then it is killing a living thing. I can not agree with your statment in anyway shape or form.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:12 PM   #134
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Barb or someone Pro-choice, can you please explain to me why the victim of a rape can kill the baby before it is born, but not after it is born? It is the same baby and has the same inherent right to life before and after it comes out of the crotch. I don't get it.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:12 PM   #135
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See my first observation. Abortion opinions are independent of religion and political parties. If you look back at this thread there are

1) Christian's who disagree with abortion
2) Christian's who agree with abortion
3) Atheists who disagree with abortion
4) Atheists who agree with abortion
5) Republicans who disagree with abortion
6) Republicans who agree with abortion
7) Democrats who disagree with abortion
8) Democrats who agree with abortion

You're statement is just a tactic to bin those who disagree with abortion to make it easier to slant the arguments.

And now one more opinion to add to the list:

Jamiesann thinks unborn innocent babies can be devil spawn: "i certainly dont think incest or rape victims should have to live 9 months with some little devil spawn "
Alright.. I'll give you that...but where's your response to the rest of my post?
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:13 PM   #136
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A man's wife can survive just fine without him, a early term baby can't survive without the mother. I don't feel it is murder until the baby could survive outside the womb.
FYI, a 1 day old baby can't survive on it's own either. It is OK to kill them then? Hell, I doubt my 11 year old could survive long on his own.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:22 PM   #137
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Barb or someone Pro-choice, can you please explain to me why the victim of a rape can kill the baby before it is born, but not after it is born? It is the same baby and has the same inherent right to life before and after it comes out of the crotch. I don't get it.
see my above statement about a mother smoking crack while pregnant. She is not brought up on charges. You can do all sorts of risky crap while pregnant that i dont agree with. I dont like abortions but i think its a catch22 situation where because of other things you really cant outlaw it.

Cant parents deny their kids medical attention on the grounds of religous freedom? I have heard this in the news and the parents being charged but i think the parents usually win in the end. Its either your kid or its not. I cant be held ultimately responsible for a kid with other folks making decisions if it should be carried to full term.

It gets pretty hairy when the state gets into peoples right or not right to procreate. Should downs syndrome or metally retarded folks be allowed to procreat even though they cant take care of themselves much less a baby. Think of the reprocussions. It can get really screwy in a hurry.
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:25 PM   #138
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I already replied to that. ... " that fetus would not be able to live/breathe/function on its own that young. It's brain, nervous system, etc are not fully formed or functional( even tho it may have fingers and toes). So to me, it's not murder if its not a true living/human being"

the difference is, at the point of abortion, it's not able to function. no full nervous system, not an operational brain, no breath, not a fully celled organism, not truly alive.

I'm done :)
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Old November 7th, 2006, 07:58 PM   #139
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1. Your husband forgets that the baby is NOT her, it is a new life which is temporarily housed in her, but it is not her. So she should not be able to just lop off and kill the baby. It's far different than having a tumor removed, a tumor is the woman's body, the baby is NOT. But everyone ignores this difference.

2. SERIOUSLY! It is disgusting!!
For the record, HE is not the monster that you are making him out to be
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Old November 7th, 2006, 09:16 PM   #140
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i think there is exceptions to every matter but ppl need to understand more of what it is
in high school ive seen it happen way too many times befor the girls actually know how the procedure is done, and now 2 of them have committed suicide once they found out what abortion is

i think education on the matter should be manditory during the "sex" course, not sure if you have them in all schools in michigan but they are mandatory over here in ontario

some of the videos out there i think ppl need to see to help them better understand the process. its not always as easy as removing an egg...
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